This blog,originally founded by Blogger, who is listed in Marquis Who's Who and is a recipient of the Albert Nelson Marquis Lifetime Achievement Award. He holds a theological degree and a doctorate in Counseling Psychology. Taught Psychology for 32 years and is now Professor Emeritus. Is a board-certified psychologist and was awarded the Lifetime Achievement Award in his profession. Ministered as a chaplain, and pastored Baptist and Episcopal churches. Publications cover the integration of psychology and theology. Served in the Army, the Merchant Marines and the Peace Corps.

Saturday, January 30, 2010

It's Not Torture

The KSM trial thread has morphed into another discussion of "torture" which is a different subject. The video within this link is a must watch for all, especially the liberals who tacitly condone terrorism. It tells why the first waterboarding victim thanked us and asked that we waterboard his colleagues.

195 comments:

Liberal POV said...

HD


Mark Thiessen would have made a great spokesman for the Catholic Inquisition .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx8PdvOELvY

bridle said...

49 experienced military personnel think your pipsqueak speechwriter is full of crap. Also see here for an article that is not from a partisan source and here for an informed opinion on whether waterboarding- or a "nasal rinse" is torture. I guess you would say thumbscrews are just an enthusiastic manicure, and the iron maiden is just a ventilated closet.

bridle said...

Saying that liberals tacitly condone terrorism is disingenuous, in fact it's an outright lie.
You don't improve your arguments by setting up such an obvious straw man.

guy faulkes said...

If you support terrorism, you support terrorism. There is nothing disingenuous about it. No one is saying you do not have the right to support terrorism.

If you are old enough, did you spit on Vietnam Vets?

Liberal POV said...

HD

Why is it so hard for you to understand your position on the treatment of terrorist suspects fails all historical, religious, literary and morality test?
You said it yourself. We need to save civilization as we know it. The actions you support undermines the very fabric of civilization.
Your position strengthens Al Qaeda. Don't spread fear and don't supply them with political and propaganda weapons

bridle said...

Guy - Liberals do not support terrorism. Nor do they support governments that torture. Do you think if you repeat a lie often enough we will back down and agree?

bridle said...

Guy, are you spitting on the veterans in the video? Are you accusing them of supporting terrorists?

guy faulkes said...

No, Bridle, I am bringing it to your attention you support terrorists. I also said people had the right to do so. You said it was disingenuous to indicate that those that support terrorist, support terrorists. This is ridiculous. You seem to think that because you support terrorism, that everyone should.

I also wondered if you spit on returning Vietnam Vets. There were also Vietnam Vets that were against the war. I have never heard or witnessed any of them spitting on other Vets. My question was very specific.

What is the percentage of the 49 people to which you refer to the number of people that lead the fight in the war on terror?

Honest Debate said...

Bridle,

The "49 experienced personnel" did not mention Mark Thiessen who was there. You say they say he is full of crap. You lie! He was intimately involved with the facts on the ground. You dismiss him as a "pipsqueak speechwriter". Does ignoring the message and attacking the messenger make you feel big? Refute his logic.

You certainly do tacitly condone terrorism. The truth hurts doesn't it?

Liberal POV said...

Lynch Mob ( Including HD, Guy, and Sark )

"Thiessen may not have intended it, but he just wrote an op-ed proving that his former boss, Dick Cheney, is a war criminal."

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/04/mark-thiessen-it-was-torture.html

Liberal POV said...

War Crime supporters ( Including HD, Guy, Sark )

You people need to be reminded of what you support.

This link is to the Bush Cheney Policy of Human rights abuse and I remind you they threw the American soldiers carring out THEIR policy in prison.

This was called taking the gloves off and what you see at Abu Graib was learned at GITMO.

http://middleeast.about.com/od/iraq/tp/abu-ghraib-complete-guide.htm

Honest Debate said...

That's funny Lib! Why not "George Bush is a war criminal?"

bridle said...

HD- Your sources are professional liars who worked for a professional liar and incompetent clown. No offense to you of course.
And no, just in case you didn't understand before, I hate terrorist activity whether it is committed by Islamics, Christians, Republicans, Democrats, or garden variety A-holes.
I don't support cruelty, torture, violence, or bigotry just because "our side" commits it.
You are evidently more situational in your sense of ethics and morality.

Liberal POV said...

HD

"Why not "George Bush is a war criminal?"


I think Bush got it when a high school student at the White House recieving an award delivered and read a letter asking him to stop the torturing. You my friend still don't get it.

Simon Jester said...

POV telling someone he does not get it is like Stevie Wonder telling you what color your shoes are.

bridle said...

POV does get it. G.W.Bush is a war criminal, and should be behind bars for his lies and war crimes.

Liberal POV said...

Simon Jester

Are you also part of this lynch mob mentality?

Lets here your justification for war crimes and human rights abuse? Tell us how these crimes make us safer and a better more civilized world.

Liberal POV said...

Simon Jester

Just so I don't get a spelling lesson I'll repost.

Are you also part of this lynch mob mentality?

Lets hear your justification for war crimes and human rights abuse? Tell us how these crimes make us safer and a better more civilized world.

Simon Jester said...

Lets here your justification for war crimes and human rights abuse? Tell us how these crimes make us safer and a better more civilized world.

I don't have to justify them because there have not been any except for what you imagine. I guess I could justify those by saying you got of your meds.

Liberal POV said...

Simon

What do you call these that were photographed?

This was called taking the gloves off and what you see at Abu Graib was learned at GITMO.

http://middleeast.about.com/od/iraq/tp/abu-ghraib-complete-guide.htm

Reader said...

I thought this was about waterboarding?

Liberal POV said...

Reader

Waterboarding was just one of the methods of breaking other human beings some guilty, some suspects or in the wrong place or turned over to the Americans for a reward or revenge.
Please tell me you're not part of this lynch mob mentality.

guy faulkes said...

POV, I believe this is about the sixth time you have used the phrase lynch mob mentality. You must have read it in on one of your liberal blogs as you never come up with anything on your own. We now know about your opinion. It is wrong as usual and you have repeated it over and over as usual. There was no torture. there was no abuse. There was interrogation. You can repeat La La La La La to your hearts content, but it does not change the fact you are wrong.

Reader said...

Lib as I've said before, waterboarding to "me", is not a form of torture. I've never been in the position of torturing anyone, nor have I myself been tortured. There is a difference, you have to admit, choosing to be waterboarded and a terrorist that doesn't care one way or another if he dies. Isn't that his intention in the first place, to kill or be killed? I know there are innocent people that get arrested, but for the terrorist...if waterboarding works, by all means...waterboard. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is not an innocent man.

Honest Debate said...

Guy, you wrote: "You must have read it in on one of your liberal blogs as you never come up with anything on your own."

I've noticed that too. The last one was something about thinking poor and voting rich...or something like that. I googled it once, it came from Bill Moyers. Before that he liked "what you think you know just ain't so"...or something. There's been more. The other thing is he ALWAYS uses the same talking points the Democrats issue, almost verbatim. By the time he posts them the talking points have been thoroughly discredited.

It's kind of funny. What was he saying about the "mob" mentality?

Liberal POV said...

Reader

Here's where the mob mentality comes in, Few of those here would subject fellow human being to what the Bush Cheney treatment policy was.

Now we have word smiths like Mark Thiessen and HD trying to convince us that what world and US courts agree is torture is really nothing more than a nasal rinse. This PR scam adds to the criminality of the original crime.
You say:
"There is a difference, you have to admit, choosing to be waterboarded and a terrorist that doesn't care one way or another if he dies. "

Reader this is an important detail.
This is not about the suspects it's about who we Americans are as a people, society and a civilization. Do you want the world to know the American people approve of torture or that the Republican Party approves and encourages torturing of those suspected of having knowledge of Al Qaeda?
You post the myth.
"if waterboarding works,"

The fact is it dosen't work and you can find that yourself with google.
We have the torture PR people like Mark Thiessen selling you lies.

The victim being tortured will tell his captors anything he thinks they want to here to make the pain stop true or no.

Honest Debate said...

Bridle,

I'm loosing patience with your idiocy.

From your link: "...Kiriakou adds that he didn't have any first hand knowledge of anything relating to CIA torture routines, and still doesn't...".

Who do you mean by "your sources" because it wasn't Thiessen. Are you now claiming the entire CIA is made up of "professional liars"?

What is so hard about watching the video and refuting logically what is said without being such a jerk? You probably didn't even watch it.

You claim: "I don't support cruelty, torture, violence, or bigotry just because "our side" commits it."

I missed it when you condemned Obama for considering a military tribunal on the KSM thread. I practically begged you to comment. Don't bother now, It's too late. And when did you condemn Obama saying more than 50 Gitmo prisoners would be held indefinitely without trial? But you were outspoken when Obama said the Cambridge police "acted stupidly"...actually you weren't. Still waiting for you to comment on the "No No-Bids" thread. Where was it that your criticized BB or LiberalPOV for using the term "teabaggers"? How about union thugs roughing them up? Nothing from you. It doesn't appear Chris Matthews bigoted statement bothered you, no comment. That's off the top of my head. I could go on but it makes me sick.

It must be nice to be so righteous and brilliant.

Honest Debate said...

Lib, you wrote: "The victim being tortured will tell his captors anything he thinks they want to here to make the pain stop true or no."

What did you think of Thiessens comments on that matter? I thought it was fascinating and made a ton of sense.

Liberal POV said...

HD

Lets get the quotes right.
I said I suspect many here live poor and vote rich, I ran across that in an old book. Bill Moyers may have had the same book, but I have great respect for Bill Moyers and if he is the author of that statement I should have given him credit.
I just googled it myself.

Living Poor, Voting Rich. By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

I think this maybe where it came from.
"Living Poor and Voting Rich" in Appalachia. Sutton, David
Appalachian Journal; Spring2005, Vol. 32 Issue 3, p340-351, 12p

This graph shows what I' referring to
http://crookedtimber.org/2007/10/26/rich-state-poor-state/

I still like using the term" What Conservatives think they know just ain't so" and have started to use it the last few post. I've just been giving it a rest but feelsure it will be back.

Want to get bacK to defending barbarism, war criminals and torture?
Do you want the world to know the Republican Party approves and encourages torturing those suspected of having knowledge of Al Qaeda?

Liberal POV said...

GOP MOB
Mobs can often be in the majority.
Wasn't Christ's crucifixion to satisfy a mob? The Roman's could care less what Christ did and found him innocent.

"The Jewish high priests and elders of the Sanhedrin accused Jesus of blasphemy, arriving at the decision to put him to death. But first they needed Rome to approve of their death sentence, so Jesus was taken to Pilate, the Roman governor in Judea. Although Pilate found him innocent, unable to find or even contrive a reason to condemn Jesus, he feared the crowds and let them decide Jesus' fate. Stirred by the Jewish chief priests, the crowds declared, "Crucify him!"

Honest Debate said...

Lib,

Please comment on Thiessen's account of the first waterboarding victim thanking the CIA and asking that his colleagues be waterboarded. I thought is made sense.

Reader said...

The Romans didn't take Christ's life, He gave it up on His own authority. It has nothing to do with waterboarding.

Liberal POV said...

HD

"Please comment on Thiessen's account of the first waterboarding victim thanking the CIA and asking that his colleagues be waterboarded."

First of all I don't believe Mr Thiessen. I don't believe that happened.

More important and I keep trying to get this across to you and others.

This is not about the suspects, it's about who we Americans are as a people, society and a civilization. Do you want the world to know the American people approve of torture or that the Republican Party approves and encourages the torturing of those suspected of having knowledge of Al Qaeda?

Honest Debate said...

Lib,

Comment on the theory he espoused, please.

Honest Debate said...

Lib,

You haven't watched the video have you?

You have no idea what I'm referring to do you?

You are not going to watch it are you?

guy faulkes said...

POV, thank you for confirming that you only parrot what your master tell you to think. Maybe someday you can get off the Kool Aid.

Your ridiculous Roman/ Christ post does not need repeating on every thread. (I do wonder where you copied it from originally. Cut and paste is indeed a valuable tool for someone like you, who has no original thoughts.) Reader debunked it. You lose. More La La La La La La does not help your cause.

Reader said...

Where are you Sark? Hope you doing well and not sick with the flu.

How is Blogger doing HD? We haven't heard from him in awhile.

HD, I miss Sark making me laugh...and Blogger's wisdom. Sorry to go off subject.

Honest Debate said...

Reader,

I haven't heard from Blogger. I've been meaning to email him, I will.

guy fauleks said...

I, too, would like to hear from Blogger. Reader brought up the issue I have with POV's misuse of the written word. This made me think that the reason I am so aggravated by it is that such misuse is something I have had to battle for my entire life. I is a shortcoming that I find in myself. Therefore I am very intolerant of the same shortcoming in others if they refuse to try to overcome it.

I think this must be a common occurrence. Take for instance, our liberal friend practice of calling us racists, bigots, cowards, etc. As we have all seen time after time, they exhibit these characteristics themselves. Maybe they realize their shortcomings in these areas and instead of trying to improve themselves, they try to project their shortcomings onto others .

My dad always said there were two ways to look good. One is to be good. The other is to try to make others look bad.

I am not trying to make POV look bad. He does that for himself. I am trying to get him to put some energy into improving his posts.

I would like Blogger's professional opinion on the subject of transferring our own shortcomings onto others that disagree with us. This is another area I may need to work on.

Liberal POV said...

HD

I did watch it before posting the comment on Mark Thisessen being a great PR person for the Catholic Cuurch's bad press over the Inquisition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx8PdvOELvY

I keep trying to get this across to you and others.

This is not about the suspects, it's about who we Americans are as a people, society and a civilization. Do you want the world to know the American people approve of torture or that the Republican Party approves and encourages the torturing of those suspected of having knowledge of Al Qaeda?

I might add this sort action Abu Graiba, GITMO, support by Political leaders for torture is a weapon for Al Qaeda. Why is that so hard for you to see?
Do you believe because you never saw those images on Fox News the rest of the world never saw them either?

Liberal POV said...

Guy

"Your ridiculous Roman/ Christ post does not need repeating on every thread. (I do wonder where you copied it from originally."

You a Christian find the crucifixion of Christ by mob action ridiculous? ("Your ridiculous Roman/ Christ post)" Guy

"(I do wonder where you copied it from originally." Guy

Your answer:
http://christianity.about.com/od/biblestorysummaries/p/crucifixionstor.htm

I try not to cut and paste like Oatz but sometimes it can be handy.
I can't always think of witty things like "You lose. More La La La La La La does not help your cause."
Maybe some day I will be able to post such mature comments.

Honest Debate said...

"Do you believe because you never saw those images on Fox News the rest of the world never saw them either?" -LiberalPOV

See, there you go again. Why do you say such BS? Foxnews covered Abu Graib extensively.

If you actually watched the video (I don't believe you) then why can't you comment on the fascinating theory espoused?

Liberal POV said...

HD

"f you actually watched the video (I don't believe you) then why can't you comment on the fascinating theory espoused?"

I did, I though it was Bull Shit and posted this

Mark Thiessen would have made a great spokesman for the Catholic Inquisition .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx8PdvOELvY

January 30, 2010 4:47 PM

I follow that with this.

First of all I don't believe Mr Thiessen. I don't believe that happened. ( ASK THAT HIS BROTHERS BE ALSO TORTURED )

More important and I keep trying to get this across to you and others.

This is not about the suspects, it's about who we Americans are as a people, society and a civilization. Do you want the world to know the American people approve of torture or that the Republican Party approves and encourages the torturing of those suspected of having knowledge of Al Qaeda?

January 31, 2010 2:31 PM

Now you can comment on my question.

Do you want the Republican Party running this fall on approving and encouraging the use of torture of those suspected of having knowledge of Al Qaeda?

Honest Debate said...

Lib,

Why do you keep repeating yourself?

Assume Thiessen is lying, fine. What about the theory sounds misguided?

I'll tell you what, if you can tell me what his claim was and comment accordingly (i.e. answer my question instead of repeating the same line) then I will answer FIVE (count'm) questions from you, no matter how stupid. I will not believe you watched if you can't tell me the theory.

Honest Debate said...

And please Lib, don't tell me what the thread is about. I posted it.

Liberal POV said...

MajorMatthew--the military's senior interrogator in Iraq in 2006.

http://www.vetvoice.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=623

(Cut and Paste)

""It is a fundamental mistake to see the enemy as a set of targets. The enemy in war is a group of people. Some of them will have to be killed. Others will have to be captured or driven into hiding. The overwhelming majority, however, have to be persuaded." -- Frederick Kagan, "War and Aftermath""

"Smarter, not harsher."
"The Global War on Terrorism (a name I despise, by the way) will not be won by national policy or advanced weapons or economic might. It will be won, like all wars, by intellect (imagine that). "

"enhanced interrogation methods (which is just a technical three word description for the word torture)."

"The foreign fighters consistently cited Abu Ghraib as their number one reason for deciding to come to Iraq and it is al Qaeda's best recruitment tool. You heard that correctly. Abu Ghraib is al Qaeda's "Army of One" commercial. "

"Torture or inhumane treatment, even in isolated cases, such as in the case of Khalid Sheikh Mohammad, is not worth the price. The integrity of our country is more important than any singular terrorist attack, even if it costs American lives. "

"I told my soldiers in Iraq that you don't stop being a human when you start being a soldier. Those two things should never be exclusive. "

" We cannot become our enemy in trying to defeat him. We cannot resort to torture or enhanced interrogation techniques. I know what works because I've been there and it's not force.

We must work smarter, not harsher. "

Liberal POV said...

HD

I ask you to make this you next post and make it by Liberal POV

http://www.vetvoice.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=623

Reader said...

Lib, I want the terrorists to stay out of our country. Obama gave our interrogation secrets to the very ones who are wanting to harm us. Do you agree with him?

By the way, I don't give a rat's patoot what other countries think of us. If our interrogation methods are intimidating to them, great. They'll stay out. We have become a nation of twinkle toes. Look at our prisons. If we were tougher, there wouldn't be as many in them.

Liberal POV said...

Reader
Please see post January 31, 2010 4:45 PM

Reader the problem with treating prisoners as animals is one day they will be back on the streets as viscous animals.

One percent of our population is behind bars. Why?

Liberal POV said...

HD

I really though I had posted this but it must have failed to upload.

The answer to your question: " What about the theory sounds misguided?"

Mark's torture selling point is suspects weree tortured to a breaking point either mentally, phyisically or both not to gain information but to gain corporation.

My reasoning as to why this is extremly misguided has been stated repeatly and best stated by MajorMatthew--the military's senior interrogator in Iraq in 2006.
see post January 31, 2010 4:43 PM

I do hope you will make his essay the next thread.by Liberal POV

http://www.vetvoice.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=623

guy faulkes said...

One of the many questions POV has dodged was asked by MikeD. The Question is how does POV intend to defeat AlQueda when all he wants to do is sing Kum-Ba-Yah to them. I would be interested in the answer to this question.

POV, why do you ignore quotes from other experts that do not agree with your point of view except to call them bullshit? Why do you think you get to decide which is the reliable source?

Also you have never answered any of the questions put to you about Brown's victory. Could it be that you are afraid? Maybe even very afraid that people have discovered your subterfuge and have abandoned you?

Liberal POV said...

Guy
See Post January 31, 2010 4:43 PM
also see post January 31, 2010 3:32 PM

Liberal POV said...

Guy

"POV, why do you ignore quotes from other experts that do not agree with your point of view except to call them bullshit? "

Mark Thiessen is no expert he's a snake oil salesman, PR man, Political speech writer.

MajorMatthew--the military's senior interrogator in Iraq in 2006 is an expert.
http://www.vetvoice.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=623

Honest Debate said...

Lib,

Close but no cigar. Thiessen related how Islam prevented the victim from spilling his guts (maybe that's a bad choice of words in regards to terrorist). Islam requires them to resist. It also condones their cooperation once they have resisted all they can. They wanted to talk but Islam would not let them so it was a great burden that was lifted once they were waterboarded. Now, I believe Thiessen and you don't, that's fine. The theory still makes sense either way.

I have not looked at the essay you linked yet but I will. I will consider your request fairly and let you know if I think it warrants further discussion.

Mike D. said...

Liberal POV,

Something I don't understand, and perhaps you can explain it to me.

I hear you quote, as though you believe it:

"The foreign fighters consistently cited Abu Ghraib as their number one reason for deciding to come to Iraq and it is al Qaeda's best recruitment tool. You heard that correctly. Abu Ghraib is al Qaeda's "Army of One" commercial." - Liberal POV quoting


But, I also hear that the reason the terrorists want to hurt us is because of our presence in their lands in the first place.

So which is it?


That is like filing an insurance claim after you wreck your car, and getting back a letter of denial that explains:

1) Your insurance was expired at the time of the accident
2) You did not use your turn signal
3) Physical evidence at the scene indicates that you were exceeding the speed limit
4) You did not yield the right-of-way

Do we really need to hear 2, 3, and 4? Insurance was expired, and that's all that actually matters, right?


Likewise, what the hell does Abu Ghraib matter? They hate us because we are there, by the logic of your brothers, so Abu Ghraib is absolutely irrelevant.

Guantanamo Bay is irrelevant. Civilian casualties are irrelevant.

All that matters is that we are not obeying 'The Golden Rule', which is both your only strategy and your only proposed weapon.


Only slight problem, you are wrong about the basic premise. Your strategy will only lead to the defeat of good and the victory of evil.

Your artistic friends should create us some wonderful paintings, some incredible music, some lovely poetry, and let the brave defend civilization from the barbarians.

Honest Debate said...

Mike D.,

I would add to your excellent post, Bin Laden has said it's our support of Israel. He never mentioned Lib's reasons. That too is irrelevant. They are at war with us whether we reciprocate or not. That is relevant.

Liberal POV said...

Mike D

"So which is it?"

Mike ask MajorMatthew--the military's senior interrogator in Iraq in 2006, he was the one I was quoting.

I also like this quote.
"It is a fundamental mistake to see the enemy as a set of targets. The enemy in war is a group of people. Some of them will have to be killed. Others will have to be captured or driven into hiding. The overwhelming majority, however, have to be persuaded." -- Frederick Kagan, "War and Aftermath""

I take it you also want to join the lynch mob and become an evangelist of fear, hate and revenge.

Could you quote me some scripture, religous teaching ( lets don't count the inquisition), philosophy, folklore or history to support your desire to support human rights abuse and torture.

Sarkazein said...

I am late on this one, but , thank you H.D for the Marc Thiessen video, I didn't know it existed. It seemed to reset and play a second half. I have not noticed a video doing that before.
That is the most informed person I have ever heard speak on the enhanced interrogation methods used in the war on terrorism. It was complete common sense.
Anyone watching the video would have to at least realize a logical reason why it was done. I think our country is harmed by the discontinuation of its use.
As a country, laws can be passed to stop it, but all should realize it was a reasonable idea to try it especially on KSM when he said "we will see what is next".
It is reasonable to want to stop enhanced interrogation, just wrong.
If someone here only watched it until the bar on the bottom of the video made it look like it was over, go back, and with an open mind view the whole thing.
It doesn't matter if you believe Thiessen or not, he presents a rational and reasonable argument.

Sarkazein said...

I can't find the comment again, but someone wrote;"It is the successful terrorist attacks against us that recruit Jihadist, not Abu Graibe." That is right on the money.

Liberal POV said...

Mike D

"But, I also hear that the reason the terrorists want to hurt us is because of our presence in their lands in the first place."

Do you really think Al Qaeda would limit recruitment to any one thing?

They will use any political or military blunder we make as a recruitment tool or weapon. The Invasion of Iraq was a political blunder in the war against Al Qaeda and became a recruitment tool. This was nothing compared to what Bush Cheney 's gloves off humans rights abuse and torture at GITMO and Abu Ghraib did to increase recriutment for Al Qaeda and a massive political blunder costing thousands of American lives. You and other here want to repeat that mistake.

Honest Debate said...

Sark,

It struck me the same way. I don't think it's a lot to ask that someone actually watch the video with an open mind. Unfortunately we have folks like Bridle that don't watch, don't have an open mind and still feel the need to label Thiessen a "pipsqueak speechwriter" and the entire CIA as "Professional liars". On the surface it makes me mad but only on the surface. Deep down I'm saddened.

Liberal POV said...

Sark

"That is the most informed person I have ever heard speak on the enhanced interrogation methods used in the war on terrorism."

The man is selling a book and covering his ass!

If you want a real expert and someone who knows what he's talking about because he was there try this.

MajorMatthew--the military's senior interrogator in Iraq in 2006 is an expert.
http://www.vetvoice.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=623

Sarkazein said...

POV- The Thiessen video, as you will see if you should ever watch it, was about enhanced interrogation. The Major in your link was writing about his opinion and experience in Iraq. Unless I read it wrong, he said he didn't use enhanced interrogation. OK, so how would he know if it worked or not? It seems to be his opinion that it doesn't... it did.

Sarkazein said...

POV- We won WW2 because our people were allowed to think. As we only rinsed the sinuses of 3 or 4 terrorists, and not thousands, I believe our people can still think on their feet. Were.

Liberal POV said...

Sark


Go back and read the whole story.

http://www.vetvoice.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=623

The Major has it right we got the intellect and we didn't give the enemy a political and propaganda weapons to recruit .

"I told my soldiers in Iraq that you don't stop being a human when you start being a soldier. Those two things should never be exclusive. "

" We cannot become our enemy in trying to defeat him. We cannot resort to torture or enhanced interrogation techniques. I know what works because I've been there and it's not force.

We must work smarter, not harsher. "

Mike D. said...

Liberal POV,

I'm sorry if it seems like I am piling on or joining the lynch-mob. That is never my intent. I speak for myself and no one else.

But the truth remains that all the criticism of the war effort from the devoted left leads back to one central concept, that when forced to stop criticizing what others are doing and state clearly their plan, it is 'The Golden Rule' and nothing else. Believing that there is a true threat, an aggressor who exists as anything other than recompense for the crimes committed by America is not allowed by your own people.

I would love you to tell me that I am wrong, say it isn't so, challenge my thinking.

But anyone on the left who dares to think differently (like Lieberman) is cast as a scoundrel and viciously attacked for not vehemently protesting war.

This is not what the crowd at A Watauga Conservative is doing. It is what your own party is doing to itself.

'The Golden Rule' is the only strategy, the only weapon you are allowed to advocate, or you will be cast out by your own people.

Please tell me I'm wrong!!!

Sarkazein said...

POV- The major is talking about something other than the point the Thiessen video makes. The Major even mentions the Geneva Convention. It is a related subject, but not the same as the Thiessen video.
This is why I wrote that you had to view it with an open mind. I also wrote that it is reasonable to not want the US to use enhanced interrogations, as the major wrote. Most of what the major wrote, I agree with. Although he is for the most part not writing about the same thing the Thiessen video speaks to.

Liberal POV said...

Mike D

"'The Golden Rule' is the only strategy, the only weapon you are allowed to advocate, or you will be cast out by your own people."

How about telling us where you found the word ONLY?
Did you feel it necessary it insert the word ONLY to give yourself a comment?
Where did Joe Lieberman get into this debate?
I have no idea if he is supporting the lynch mob, torture and human rights abuse?

Do you really believe we can win the war against Al Qaeda quicker and have a better more civilized peaceful world if we Americans comitte torture and other human rights abuses?
Do you believe returning vets will have few problems despite the fact they wittnessed or were a party to torturing Al Qaeda suspects?
You and others here want to down play the Golden Rule as being at the heart of civilization and humanity.
The Major is writing about Americans soldiers maintaining their humanity and the American people equally maintaining their humanity and still winning the war against Al Qaeda.


"It is a fundamental mistake to see the enemy as a set of targets. The enemy in war is a group of people. Some of them will have to be killed. Others will have to be captured or driven into hiding. The overwhelming majority, however, have to be persuaded." -- Frederick Kagan, "War and Aftermath""

So you also want to join the lynch mob and become an evangelist of fear, hate and revenge?

Could you quote me some scripture, religous teaching ( lets don't count the inquisition), philosophy, folklore or history to support your desire to support human rights abuse and torture.

Liberal POV said...

Sark

Thiessen and Major Matthew are talking about the same things, How to win the war againstt Al Qaeda and enhanced interrogation methods which the major says" is just a technical three word description for the word torture".
Mark Thiessen is a speech writer lobbying to sell the American public and the world he and the Bush Admn were not war criminals.
Major Matthew was on the ground and wittnessed both methods.

The Major"
"Torture or inhumane treatment, even in isolated cases, such as in the case of Khalid Sheikh Mohammad, is not worth the price. The integrity of our country is more important than any singular terrorist attack, even if it costs American lives. "

" We cannot become our enemy in trying to defeat him. We cannot resort to torture or enhanced interrogation techniques. I know what works because I've been there and it's not force.

We must work smarter, not harsher. "

Honest Debate said...

Lib,

I really wish you would stop repeating yourself. How many times are you going to paste the same quotes? It does not make your argument stronger.

I agree with Sark. There is much that makes sense from your link although I don't buy the "enhanced interrogation" equals torture line. I also don't agree with his assertion, " The integrity of our country is more important than any singular terrorist attack, even if it costs American lives". "Integrity of our country" is pretty vague and preventing American deaths is not.

That said his points are valid and laudable. What you're missing is he is one of us. Your belief that our forces are all masochistic torturers following marching orders allows you to believe Mr. Alexander is an exception, he's not. We did not water board every one who came through the door. Just three. Abu Graib is not a reflection of policy. Our brave soldiers are not maniacal madmen.

Liberal POV said...

HD

The Bush Cheney "Take the gloves off human rights torture policy" caused a break down of military discipline in Iraq and GITMO. The men and women sent to prison carrying out these policies are proof of that.
Military personnel in Iraq at that time troops were lead to believe those that brought down the world trade towers were the same people that were in front of them in Iraq.
HD: "We did not water board every one who came through the door. Just three. "

This comment is simply wrong do your own research so you will believe it. Far more than that died during the torture.

The human right abuse will only recruit more extremism.

Please tell me how torture and Human rights abuse will create a safer more civilized world?

Could you quote me some scripture, religious teaching ( lets don't count the inquisition), philosophy, folklore or history to support your desire to support human rights abuse and torture?

I repeat because you don't seem able to comprehend the Bush Cheney doctrine cost American lives and played out to increase the strength of Al Qaeda.
Thankfully todays military gets this concept if you don't. By the way that military change took place under Bush not Obama. The debate now is strictly domestic politics, but the debate still helps AlQaeda as you are still providing them (Al Qaeda a political and propaganda weapon not to mention the fear factor.

Honest Debate said...

"I repeat because you don't seem able to comprehend the Bush Cheney doctrine cost American lives and played out to increase the strength of Al Qaeda." -LiberalPOV

The Bush Cheney doctrine saved lives and decimated Al Qaeda. That's the quantifiable truth. Keep repeating your delusions, it won't help.

Three were waterboarded. That's it.

Honest Debate said...

Mike D.,

I should probably put this in the "Weed Patch" but you appear to be following this thread and I'm very curious. Given your admirable comments about not piling on to LiberalPOV you may not want to answer and that's fine.

A while back I was struck when you told LiberalPOV that you "respect" what he did here. I could sort of understand "admire" or "am interested" or "respect your right". I believe that respect must be earned although I try to always assume that everyone is respectable by default. Dishonest debate truly bugs me. "Honest Debate" was my mantra way before it was my moniker. I believe most of the time there is a right and a wrong position and it can be determined through honest debate. Not always, sometimes it comes down to a matter of opinion. In those cases if the debate has been honest I can readily respect the other view. If, through honest debate, I am shown to be wrong then I am grateful to be enlightened. I don't want to be wrong for the sake of ideology. I gave LiberalPOV the benefit of the doubt for quite some time and it's quite frustrating and futile.

My question: What has LiberalPOV done to earn your respect?

Sarkazein said...

POV, You really are on the other side. I can guarantee the Major would treat you to a smack down if you talked about his country and troops that way. He might not water-board you, but you would be making that loud sound as he introduced you to the wall.
Your opinion of our troops, CIA operatives included, is atrocious.

Liberal POV said...

HD

"The Bush Cheney doctrine saved lives and decimated Al Qaeda. That's the quantifiable truth. "


Why are you in so much fear then?

Why are we sending more Americans to the Middle East?

We spent four years defeating the Nazis and they had a Navy, Air force and an Armered military.

This war started in 2002 eight years ago. Bush energized them with the invasion of Iraq , Gitmo and Abu Graib.

Sarkazein said...

POV-

Let me add, after your last comment, the Major would cause you to water-board yourself.

Liberal POV said...

HD, Mike and Sark

Please tell me how torture and Human rights abuse will create a safer more civilized world?

Could you quote me some scripture, religious teaching ( lets don't count the inquisition), philosophy, folklore or history to support your desire to support human rights abuse and torture?

guy faulkes said...

POV, until you realize there is was no torture or human rights abuse, It is useless to talk to you.

You may now repeat your La La La La La responses requesting debate over nonexistent issues.

Liberal POV said...

Guy

I see you have your well though out response to the questions.

Please tell me how torture and Human rights abuse will create a safer more civilized world?

Could you quote me some scripture, religious teaching ( lets don't count the inquisition), philosophy, folklore or history to support your desire to support human rights abuse and torture?

Guy's best wisdom and debating points:
"La La La La La"

Mike D. said...

HD,

A group of like-minded individuals can sometimes talk each other and themselves into saying and believing some outlandish and illogical things. We can see it at Klan rallies and within the global warming advocacy community.

The presence of an opposing voice within a group acts to moderate the views of the group, forcing the group to only advance defensible positions and making them think about whether or not what they say will be easily refuted by the opposing voice.

The person who chooses to voice the opposing viewpoint in the hostile environment must possess courage to do so, as he or she faces constant conflict and harsh criticism from all sides in response to almost every word he or she says.

So, for Liberal POV's courage, I offer respect. For his or her contribution of opposing views, I offer my appreciation. I know it is not my blog, and you are the one who decides how you want the site to look and feel, but upon encountering a gaggle of liberal college professors whipping each other into a Socialist frenzy outside a coffee shop, I have never been able to resist the temptation to offer my critique of the final, illogical conclusions they reach.

In Liberal POV, I see someone with whom I may frequently disagree, but who suffers from the same affliction I have, and that makes me tend to defend him or her, just a little.

I hope this helps explain my thoughts.

Mike D. said...

"We spent four years defeating the Nazis and they had a Navy, Air force and an Armered military." - Liberal POV

If we were allowed to take the gloves off, this war would have been over a long time ago. How about any town that allows Al'Qaeda to operate within its walls gets obliterated? That would end the war really fast.

Honest Debate said...

Thank You Mike D., that does help.

It's hard for me to view the current discourse as Liberal/Democrat viewpoint opposing Conservative/Republican viewpoint. Most do, maybe I'm odd that way. I see the debate as truth vs. untruth or honest debate vs. dishonest debate. IMHO ideology should play no role at all. Maybe I'm dreaming. When ideology trumps truth it's not honest. That's my gripe and I'm willing to be called on it.

Thanks for your continuing contributions to this blog.

guy faulkes said...

Focus POV, focus. The torture and human rights abuses you refer o only exist in your imagination. What do scripture, etc. have to do with your fantasies?

MikeD, it might interest you to know that my friend, the Wolf, once was convinced POV was really Blogger trying to stimulate the conversation with outlandish comments that are never backed up by logic or facts. These comments are always liberal talking points with no original thought.

Mike D. said...

Guy,

If that is true, then you are posting to an imaginary friend. ;)

Liberal POV said...

HD Guy, and others claiming no torture happened

The following are documentaries on the subject.
I encourage you to do your own research on non right wing sites.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3l170cMRDQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxfPpi7IUaU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtDGWH2RCcM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UekvS3n-8iY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ_Vxoyu8zY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tIstnNrCAQ&feature=channel

Sarkazein said...

POV asked-"Why are we sending more Americans to the Middle East?"

Ask Obama.

Liberal POV said...

Mike D

"If we were allowed to take the gloves off, this war would have been over a long time ago. How about any town that allows Al'Qaeda to operate within its walls gets obliterated? That would end the war really fast."

Would this include London or Islamabad?

Liberal POV said...

Guy, Mike, HD, Sark

If your positions on the subject of torture and Human rights abuse is so strong why can you not answer these questions?

Please tell me how torture and Human rights abuse will create a safer more civilized world?

Could you quote me some scripture, religious teaching ( lets don't count the inquisition), philosophy, folklore or history to support your desire to support human rights abuse and torture?

Honest Debate said...

"Please tell me how torture and Human rights abuse will create a safer more civilized world?" -LiberalPOV

It won't.

"Could you quote me some scripture, religious teaching ( lets don't count the inquisition), philosophy, folklore or history to support your desire to support human rights abuse and torture?"

Here ,here and here.

Honest Debate said...

Now will you stop asking?

Honest Debate said...

I probably should not have quoted the Bible as I have tacitly accepted your false premise, "...your desire to support human rights abuse and torture".

Check the Quran. It's rich with examples.

Liberal POV said...

HD

Keep thinking about what you just posted and the questions.

Do you really believe that will make a safer more peaceful and civilized world?


My advice when you are in a hole stop digging.

Mike D. said...

"Please tell me how torture and Human rights abuse will create a safer more civilized world?" -LiberalPOV


It won't.

Liberal POV said...

Mike D

"It won't."

You get a gold star for the correct answer.

Liberal POV said...

HD

I'm referring to the Eye for and eye link you made.

Honest Debate said...

Lib, you wrote:

"Mike D

It won't.

You get a gold star for the correct answer."


I gave the exact same answer as Mike D. 4 post before he did. You give him a gold star and you give me squat. W'sup with that?

Mike D. said...

Liberal POV,

I'll accept your gold star, as long as it doesn't come with six points and a free boxcar ride.

Honest Debate said...

I wish I had a gold star...sigh.

Liberal POV said...

HD

You added an addendum of an eye for an eye so the world can become blind.

Honest Debate said...

Lib,

I answered the question correctly. I'm disappointed that Mike D. didn't refuse his gold star in protest of me not getting one. Oh well, he's still a very good blogger.

Sarkazein said...

POV- Will you demand our returning soldiers be put on trial for their atrocities? Or will you let them slide with the "I vas only following orders"?
Why has your Democrat Congress not moved to open a war crimes trial on the American troops and their leaders?
Will you demand the returning troops be watched by the authorities as they are probably radicalized from their criminal actions?

Reader said...

Lib, could you tell me who on here supports torture and what they said to support it?

If you want to start with me...I said waterboarding is not torture in my opinion. I have listed at one time what I consider torture, but I don't recall anyone on here supporting torture, but it could have slipped by me.

Liberal POV said...

Reader

".I said waterboarding is not torture in my opinion."

This maybe your opinion but US law and International law and international treaties and legal scholars and the rest of the world would disagree with your opinion. Far more than waterboarding was involved here.

Go watch the vidios posted then come back and tell me that torture didn't happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3l170cMRDQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxfPpi7IUaU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtDGWH2RCcM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UekvS3n-8iY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ_Vxoyu8zY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tIstnNrCAQ&feature=channel

Liberal POV said...

Sark

"Will you demand our returning soldiers be put on trial for their atrocities? Or will you let them slide with the "I vas only following orders"? "

No, not enlisted men and women Cheney and Rumsfelt a big yes. They caused lots of unnecessary death and misery including American lives.

The Bush Cheney Admin. threw at least six under the bus for carrying out the Cheney, Rumsfelt policy well documented on White House stationary.

That to is covered in video I just posted for reader.

Liberal POV said...

Sark

"Will you demand the returning troops be watched by the authorities as they are probably radicalized from their criminal actions?"

I know you want to set me up for scorn, but the fact is many vets retuning not just this war but all wars often suffer from the scares of their actions and the things they wittness. Many do turn on their families , society or themselves.

Reader said...

and once again...Lib, could you tell me who on here supports torture and what they said to support it?

Sarkazein said...

POV wrote" Many do turn on their families , society or themselves."


That's right, and ONLY returning vets do that, not any of the other general population types.
That's what we should do with GITMO, put all the returning vets there and protect society.

Liberal POV said...

Reader

In the past HD, Sark, Guy and I believe Mike D have all made arguments justifing torturing suspects who may have information about terrorist activities and as a means of gaining information making America safer, this latest argument by Mark Thiessen suggest torturing Muslim susppects to a breaking point after which Alla will appove of them spilliing all they know. Mr Thiessen never explained what happens when we get someone without information. Is he to be tortured to death?
You I hope know my arguments by now against such barbarism and wrong headed thinking.

How about you reader do you support the Rumsfelt Cheney torture doctrine?

Honest Debate said...

Lib,

I don't support torture. Quit lying about me.

Liberal POV said...

HD

I though I had been careful in decribing your support of Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfelt's Gloves off interagation policy as decribed in white house documents and the breakdown of military disipline.

Hd would you like to decribe your own position on torture and human rights abuse?

Please don't tell us you support the code words for torture "enhanced interrogation methods (which is just a technical three word description for the word torture)" but not torture.

Sarkazein said...

BAGHDAD (AP) - Iraqi officials say a female suicide bomber mingling among Shiite pilgrims in northern Baghdad has detonated an explosives belt, killing at least 54 people.
A police official says the bomber struck Monday while she was lining up with other women to be searched by female security guards at a checkpoint on the outskirts of the Shiite neighborhood of Shaab.

He says about 117 people have been wounded. He says 18 women and 12 children are among the dead.///

POV, what do you think got her to sign up, Abu Greab or GITMO? OR maybe she thought Chenney was in that line.

Liberal POV said...

Sark

You're thinking in the right direction. What can modivate a woman to take her own life and that of her fellow citizens? I have lots of answers but sorry not this one.

Please don't miss my point, harsher interagations will not stop this waste of human life.
Better under standing of the culture may help.

guy faulkes said...

POV, what I advocated was not torture. It was the means necessary to win a war. In a war you kill your enemies and destroy their possessions until they surrender. They brought this on themselves by attacking us and harboring and SUPPORTING those that do.

You on the other hand do not care how many innocent people your terrorist heroes kill. You are despicable. If you ever go from just talking about supporting terrorism to actively financing it or participating in physical acts of terrorism, this country should prescribe for you the traditional medicine for a traitor. This medicine sometimes involves a cigarette and a blindfold.

You are, of course, perfectly within your rights to talk bad about your country (although you still have to legally forgo smoking dope). I, of course, am within my rights to think of you as scum sucking pond lice, except that would be an insult to scum sucking pond lice everywhere and I might need to apologize to the lice.

Did you understand me or did I stutter?

Liberal POV said...

I just watched the story of Shoshana Johnsonon and Jessica Lynch NBC. I feel that story goes with this thread.

Both Shoshana Johnsonon and were captured in the same ambush during the Iraq War on March 23, 2003

She was the first black female prisoner of war in the military history of the United States.

They opened her chemical weapons suit “and noticed I was a female,” she said. Then they treated her “very well. I don’t know why.”
Next stop a Baghdad prison. Where the videotape we all saw on TV was apparently made. Johnson said her interrogators asked her about the locations of American divisions.

“When they finally got that I was only a cook, they started asking me where the food came from, if it was coming from Kuwait,” she said, smiling.
Iraqi doctors performed surgery three times on her wounded ankles. “More than once, a doctor said that they wanted to take good care of me to show that the Iraqi people had humanity,” Johnson said.
Asked what she thought of that now, she says “I appreciate the care that I was given. But I also know that there was a reason behind it. They didn’t give me care just for the humanity of it.”

If the Iraqis can understand this why can't we?

guy faulkes said...

We are not at war with Iraq. We are at war with terrorists.

Are you saying we did not treat Iraqi prisoners when we were at war with that country? Are you saying we do not treat terrorists when we capture them now? What does treating wounded prisoners have to do with interrogation?

There is no torture.

Focus POV. Try to stay on topic.

Sarkazein said...

POV wrote-"If the Iraqis can understand this why can't we?"

Because you are an idiot.

Liberal POV said...

Guy

"There is no torture.

Focus POV. Try to stay on topic."

You tell me which gets the best results and creates the least hate?

Go watch the vidios posted then come back and tell me that these actions didn't cost unnecessary lives American lives.

The Rumsfelt, Cheney prisoner treatment policy cost both American and Iraqi lives.

Compare the treatment of this woman and that of captured Iraqis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3l170cMRDQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxfPpi7IUaU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtDGWH2RCcM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UekvS3n-8iY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ_Vxoyu8zY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tIstnNrCAQ&feature=channel

Liberal POV said...

Sark

"Because you are an idiot."

This is always a good way to show intellect, reasoning and logic.

This response by Sark is a shining example of conservative logic and reason.

Could similar logic be behind why the war in Iraq has gone on twice as long as World War II?

HD care to comment on fellow conservatives logic, reasoning and winning personality?

oatz said...

Liberal POV remember when Obama said he would close Gitmo, end the war in Iraq, and run the Al queda out of Afganistain. As of yet he has failed to deliver on those and all his campaign promises. Hope & Change is in reality Broke with no change.

Liberal POV said...

Oatz

"Liberal POV remember when Obama said he would close Gitmo, end the war in Iraq, and run the Al queda out of Afganistain."

I know Obama's been in office for over a year now and the world is not perfect yet. I'm disappointed also.

Honest Debate said...

"HD care to comment on fellow conservatives logic, reasoning and winning personality?" -LiberalPOV

Well, since you asked I'd say I agree with your assessment of Sark 100%.

"This response by Sark is a shining example of conservative logic and reason."

guy faulkes said...

POV I started looking at several of you links. They are all opinion pieces from supporters of terrorism such as your self. They are meaningless so I stopped going to them. Link something creditable or do not bother to link it. There was no torture.

Answer the questions about whether you are saying we did not treat wounded prisoners curing the war with Iraq and whether we do not do so in the war on terror.

Liberal POV said...

Guy


"Answer the questions about whether you are saying we did not treat wounded prisoners curing the war with Iraq and whether we do not do so in the war on terror."

I never suggested we didn't but I think the experience was quite different than that of Shoshana Johnsonon and Jessica Lynch.

Sarkazein said...

Sorry POV, I thought you knew.


""Because you are an idiot."

This is always a good way to show intellect, reasoning and logic.

This response by Sark is a shining example of conservative logic and reason."-POV


You asked why WE couldn't understand, when it is only you.

Liberal POV said...

Sark

""Because you are an idiot."

Now we have the answer to life's problems

We should have just ask Sark to begin with.

Do you have too much to drink yesterday that made you today's grouchy old fart?

Liberal POV said...

Honest Debate

""Because you are an idiot."


This is the example mature well reasoned debate you want to take place on this blog?

Sarkazein said...

Typing practice:

American troops closed down Sadaam's actual torture rooms and rape rooms. The US has always been humane to prisoners of war. In WW2 the Nazis ran toward the Americans to surrender as to not be captured by the Russians. The US is better than any country in history with few small exceptions in it's treatment of prisoners.

POV, your question asked why we (as in the United States Military) cannot learn from the very people that had rape rooms, executed mothers with their children tied to their backs, executed prisoners and made the spouse pay for the bullet, pushed blindfolded prisoners off three story buildings, gassed their fellow civilian countryman, summarily executed captured Iranian soldiers on the battlefield. YOU want America to learn from them... idiocy is being polite. It gives you an excuse for not knowing what you write.

Liberal POV said...

Sark

You make my point here.

"The US has always been humane to prisoners of war. In WW2 the Nazis ran toward the Americans to surrender as to not be captured by the Russians."

Cheney and Rumsfelt were not in charge then.

Do you think Shoshana Johnsonon and Jessica Lynch are lying about their humane treatment at the hands of their Iraqi captors? It doesn't matter the motives of their humane treatment they recieved humane treatment.
The fact at least these two recieved humane treatment was good PR for the people of Iraq.

guy faulkes said...

"I never suggested we didn't but I think the experience was quite different than that of Shoshana Johnsonon and Jessica Lynch."

POV, what do you think? You seem to be saying we mistreat wounded prisoners. Where are your facts?

Exactly who do you think was in charge during the war with Iraq? Are you now defending the Bush administration?

Liberal POV said...

Guy

"Exactly who do you think was in charge during the war with Iraq?"

Cheney and Rumsfelt until Gates took over then Bush and Gates.

The major blunders costing both Iraqi and American lives were made by Cheney and Rumsfelt.

Sarkazein said...

I don't know why I am asking this question.

POV, do you consider the two female soldiers captured by the enemy the same as a terrorist?

guy faulkes said...

POV, are you ever going to answer the question about your opinion of how we treat wounded prisoners? You brought the subject up by speaking of the manner our enemies did in two instances. You must have an opinion and facts you used to make your comparison. Surely you would not merely mouth a platitude or pull something out of the air.

Honest Debate said...

"...or pull something out of the air." -Guy Faulkes

That's not where he pulled it out from.

Liberal POV said...

Sark

"POV, do you consider the two female soldiers captured by the enemy the same as a terrorist?"


No, and only a small percentage of the suspects at Abu Graiba were actual terrorist. All those in US custody were still human beings entiled the humane treatment not torture.

Honest Debate said...

Expert testimony:

"No, and only a small percentage of the suspects at Abu Graiba were actual terrorist." -LiberalPOV

Liberal POV said...

Guy and HD

Had we not tortured and abused Iraqis in US custody, we may have reduced the level of resistance from Iraqis and those that travel to Iraq to kill American men and women.
You folks that watch Fox news still refuse to watch the graphic footage of Abu Graiba, but be assured the rest of the world watched with outrage and motivation.

The Rumsfelt, Cheney human rights abuse doctrine was the single biggest blunder of American stradegy in the Middle East other than starting the war with Iraq to began with.

Honest Debate said...

"You folks that watch Fox news still refuse to watch the graphic footage of Abu Graiba..." -LiberalPOV

That's just plain stupid Lib. Who showed more video and photo's than Fox? Where was more outrage expressed? You should tune in, you won't find any more criticism of Bush, Iraq or Republicans anywhere.

BTW, they criticize the left too.

Liberal POV said...

Honest Debate???

"Expert testimony:"


What percentage of those at GITMO and Abu Graiba that were tortured do you believe were actual terrorist?

Liberal POV said...

Honest Debate???

"Expert testimony:"

Of the thousands through Abu Graiba and GITMO we have 50 the US considers to dangerous to set free or return to native country.

Liberal POV said...

Honest Debate???

"I don't support torture. Quit lying about me."" ????

February 1, 2010 5:23 PM

Honest Debate said...

"What percentage of those at GITMO and Abu Graiba that were tortured do you believe were actual terrorist?" -LiberalPOV

Your the expert.

"Of the thousands through Abu Graiba and GITMO we have 50 the US considers to dangerous to set free or return to native country."

Those 50 will be held indefinitely without trial by Obama at Gitmo which will remain open.

Is it your position that if they are released it means they are not "actual terrorist"? Many have gone back to the battlefield and killed again.

Liberal POV said...

HD

"Many have gone back to the battlefield and killed again."

That doesn't mean they had to be terrorist when they were first taken into US Custody. Would humane treatment have reduced the number that wanted to kill Americans?
More important this is not about who THEY are it's about who WE are as a people and as a society.

Liberal POV said...

HD and other Advocates for Torture

"Torture? It probably killed more Americans than 9/11"

"The reason why foreign fighters joined al-Qa'ida in Iraq was overwhelmingly because of abuses at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib and not Islamic ideology," says Major Matthew Alexander, who personally conducted 300 interrogations of prisoners in Iraq.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/torture-it-probably-killed-more-americans-than-911-1674396.html

Liberal POV said...

HD, Guy, Sark

"US interpreter who witnessed torture in Iraq shot herself with service rifle"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/us-interpreter-who-witnessed-torture-in-iraq-shot-herself-with-service-rifle-1674399.html

Liberal POV said...

Right Wing NUTS


http://www.harpers.org/archive/2008/12/hbc-90004036

Liberal POV said...

Cheney Groupies

"Former Interrogator Slams Cheney Over Torture Policy"

http://bravenewfilms.org/blog/?p=70924

guy faulkes said...

POV, you posted 10 times trying to avoid the question about our treatment of wounded prisoners. It is not going away.

Linking to those propaganda sites of your fellow supporters of terrorism proves nothing. There was no torture.

Answer the question with something credible to back it up or admit you lied in indicating we did not treat wounded prisoners.

Liberal POV said...

Cheney Groupies

"Probably the least told story of the Iraq war-quagmire is the extent to which the Pentagon military, especially the U.S. Army brass, disagrees with and despises these civilian superiors. Donald Rumsfeld, one of the most disliked of the Secretaries of Defense, has spent much energy making sure that high level dissent in the military is muzzled and overlayered by his loyalists.

Just last week Rumsfeld demoted three military service chiefs in the Pentagon hierarchy and replaced them with three loyalists who previously worked for his buddy Dick Cheney.

Right from the beginning the U.S. Army brass opposed the invasion of Iraq for both military and strategic reasons. They believed such an attack would absorb massive human and material resources that would divert from the chase after the 9/11 terrorists and the resolution of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. They disagreed with the paucity of soldiers that Bush/Cheney and Rumsfeld were to send there. They were appalled by the lack of post-war planning directives by the Administration."

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1231-05.htm

Liberal POV said...

Guy

" you lied in indicating we did not treat wounded prisoners."

Would you cut and paste where I posted that or do we Guy caught in a lie with the above post?

Sarkazein said...

Common Dreams. POV you are for sure a Red Diaper Baby.

News and opinion website intended to be "a progressive political organizing tool"
Reflects spectrum of views from liberal to Marxist-socialist



CommonDreams.org is a popular website founded in 1996 by radical activist Craig Brown "to develop use of the Internet as a progressive political organizing tool." It not only banners the day's hottest news and commentary selected by Editor Brown but also provides a large number of hyperlinks to other leftist and liberal columnists, periodicals, radio outlets, news services, and websites.

The left-leaning sources hyperlinked by CommonDreams.org range from mild (e.g., Washington Post columnist E.J. Dionne, Jr. and Newsweek) to radical (e.g., Noam Chomsky and Monkeyfist Collective) to explicitly Marxist (e.g., Monthly Review and Howard Zinn). Other writers and publications whose commentaries are linked from CommonDreams.org include Ali Abunimah, Eric Alterman, Robert Borosage, Alexander Cockburn, Jeff Cohen, Juan Cole, Joe Conason, David Corn, Barbara Ehrenreich, Tom Engelhardt, Robert Fisk, Tom Hayden, Bob Herbert, Arianna Huffington, Sam Husseini, Jesse Jackson, Naomi Klein, Paul Krugman, Michael Lerner, Manning Marable, Michael Moore, Ralph Nader, Ted Rall, Robert Reich, Frank Rich, Arundhati Roy, Robert Scheer, Norman Solomon, Michael Tomasky, Katrina vanden Heuvel, The Black Commentator, Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting, the Institute for Public Accuracy, The American Prospect, CounterPunch, Harper's Magazine, The Nation, Sojourners, and Z Magazine.

CommonDreams.org's name was inspired by a co-founder and former President of the Students for a Democratic Society, Todd Gitlin, whose book The Twilight of Common Dreams: Why America Is Wracked by Culture Wars was published in 1995, only months before Brown launched his website.

CommonDreams.org is closely tied to two other entities -- NewsCenter, launched by Brown in May 1997, and the Progressive NewsWire, which publishes de facto press releases by leftist groups to promote their own rallies, protests and other activities.

guy faulkes said...

Sure, I can cut and paste your comment, POV, You brought up the issue of how our enemies treated prisoners of war and implied we did not do so in your post of February 2, 2010 8:44 AM. The telling part of your post is "If the Iraqis can understand this why can't we?"

Nice try at lying.

Liberal POV said...

Sark

Facts are facts do you have any?

How about addressing the issues?

What do you disagree with?

"Probably the least told story of the Iraq war-quagmire is the extent to which the Pentagon military, especially the U.S. Army brass, disagrees with and despises these civilian superiors. Donald Rumsfeld, one of the most disliked of the Secretaries of Defense, has spent much energy making sure that high level dissent in the military is muzzled and overlayered by his loyalists.

Just last week Rumsfeld demoted three military service chiefs in the Pentagon hierarchy and replaced them with three loyalists who previously worked for his buddy Dick Cheney.

Right from the beginning the U.S. Army brass opposed the invasion of Iraq for both military and strategic reasons. They believed such an attack would absorb massive human and material resources that would divert from the chase after the 9/11 terrorists and the resolution of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. They disagreed with the paucity of soldiers that Bush/Cheney and Rumsfeld were to send there. They were appalled by the lack of post-war planning directives by the Administration."

Liberal POV said...

Guy

"If the Iraqis can understand this why can't we?"

This being humane treatment by captors makes better press, improved world opinion, and does not motivate the opposing side to fight harder.

This is not the same as the lie you posted.

" you lied in indicating we did not treat wounded prisoners."

Time for you to apologize to me and the person who claims to want an Honest Debate.

Guy you have been caught once again being dishonest.

guy faulkes said...

POV, you wanted me to paste where you said we needed to treat wounded prisoners. I did. We will have to let everyone decide for themselves what you meant.

In my opinion you are a traitorous scumbag, as I have stated before. I hope this apology satisfies you.

This does not mean you do not have a right to your terrorist supporting opinions or the right to worship your terrorist heroes.

Liberal POV said...

Guy

When you write checks with your keyboard that logic, facts and history cannot cover why do you feel the need to slander, lie and become dishonest?
Tell us again about your moral grounding.

Sarkazein said...

POV wrote-"Facts are facts do you have any?"

Here's one, the article you linked from your commie rag was an opinion and not a fact... fact.

Liberal POV said...

Sark

???

Sarkazein said...

POV asked-"Facts are facts do you have any?"

Your article was not facts, it was Ralph Nader's or some other commie that contributes to your link (commondreams.org) opinion of his conception.
That's a fact comrade.

Liberal POV said...

Sark

Want to point out what you believe to be the inaccuracies in what I cut and pasted from the common dreams site?

Stop whining and debate.

guy faulkes said...

POV, I have been completely truthful. If you are ashamed of being a traitorous scumbag, take off your Che T-shirt and quit being a traitor.

Sarkazein said...

POV- Your article is the opinion of others opinions.

Liberal POV said...

Guy

"POV, I have been completely truthful. If you are ashamed of being a traitorous scumbag, take off your Che T-shirt and quit being a traitor."

Truthful???

I see you still cannot cover checks you wrote with your keyboard with the currency of logic, facts and history. You now feel you must steal another persons integrity to hide your own slander and lies.

Liberal POV said...

Sark

I take it you found no inaccuracies in what I cut and pasted from the common dreams site as you list none here?

What do you disagree with?

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1231-05.htm

"Probably the least told story of the Iraq war-quagmire is the extent to which the Pentagon military, especially the U.S. Army brass, disagrees with and despises these civilian superiors. Donald Rumsfeld, one of the most disliked of the Secretaries of Defense, has spent much energy making sure that high level dissent in the military is muzzled and overlayered by his loyalists.

Just last week Rumsfeld demoted three military service chiefs in the Pentagon hierarchy and replaced them with three loyalists who previously worked for his buddy Dick Cheney.

Right from the beginning the U.S. Army brass opposed the invasion of Iraq for both military and strategic reasons. They believed such an attack would absorb massive human and material resources that would divert from the chase after the 9/11 terrorists and the resolution of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. They disagreed with the paucity of soldiers that Bush/Cheney and Rumsfeld were to send there. They were appalled by the lack of post-war planning directives by the Administration."

February 3, 2010 3:34 PM

Mike D. said...

Liberal POV,

It is true that if you quote articles from Commondreams, ZMag, Alexander Cockburn, et al, you are frequently quoting anti-semites and supporters of the Communist party who frequently don't really even try to hide their affiliations.

For instance, Alexander Cockburn, son of Claud Cockburn, card carrying member of the Communist party, wrote an essay called My Life as an "Anti-Semite".

I'm sure if you go through the list of people who write the articles in the media sources you quote, you will find that many of them have a deep appreciation for mass murderers like Mao and racist thugs like Che Guevara.

Just FYI.

guy faulkes said...

MikeD, I think POV already knew about the authors you mentioned. He supports these kinds of people and terrorism. If you thought to change his mind about the value of their statements, forget it. He believes with a religious fever in their comments. He is as bad or worse than they are.

Liberal POV said...

Mike D

You also want to attack the messenger not the facts or the message.

What do you find inaccurate in what was posted by me from the commondream article by Ralph Nader?

I did found the essay called My Life as an "Anti-Semite" by Alexander Cockburn about censorship of issues, debates and articles related to Israel in anything but positive terms well written.

Did you find something in the essay My Life as an "Anti-Semite" by Alexander Cockburn untrue or over stated?

http://student.cs.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/articles/article0004256.html

guy faulkes said...

I rest my case.

Liberal POV said...

Guy

" He supports these kinds of people and terrorism."

I see you continue on your path of lies and dishonesty with slandous post because you were caught in a lie.

You continue to show yourself to be small, petty and dishonest.

Guy you would do well to apoligize and stop digging yourself deeper by showing you lack morality.

Liberal POV said...

GUy

"I rest my case."

Have you read the essay called My Life as an "Anti-Semite" by Alexander Cockburn about censorship of issues, debates and articles related to Israel in anything but positive terms ?

http://student.cs.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/articles/article0004256.html

If you have not read the above essay your post was made without any knowledge of the subject being discussed and you chose make negative comment dispite your ignorance of the subject.

If you had read the article you would know the article is about censorship, freedom and open political system.

Sarkazein said...

POV joins that list of people, who look for the few wrongs in America's history and dwell on those things rather than come to the realization that there is no Utopia or perfect world. Yet, in his mind, Cuba, North Vietnam, Venezuela, the PLO, radical Muslims, illegal aliens, gang bangers, Bill Clinton, Sadaam's Iraq, Che, John Edwards are all things we as American's should emulate to become perfect.
E sites like Commondream.org have a common dream POV shares. A nightmare for me.

Liberal POV said...

Sark

Did you have something you want to disagree with that I posted or you just want to make a personal slanderous attack?

Got Facts?

The so called conservatives go with slander and out right lies when they run out of debating points, facts and data to support their myths, opinions and propanda.

Sarkazein said...

Gasp! Disagreement in the Pentagon amongst staff.
It's never happened before or since. All Flag Officers, civilian leadership, and clerks think exactly alike. There is really no need for meetings, they are all already in agreement. Certainly it was that way when Nader served as Sec of Defense or as a military planner, or Corvair Inspector General.

Liberal POV said...

Sark

So you admit what was posted below was correct?

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1231-05.htm

"Probably the least told story of the Iraq war-quagmire is the extent to which the Pentagon military, especially the U.S. Army brass, disagrees with and despises these civilian superiors. Donald Rumsfeld, one of the most disliked of the Secretaries of Defense, has spent much energy making sure that high level dissent in the military is muzzled and overlayered by his loyalists.

Just last week Rumsfeld demoted three military service chiefs in the Pentagon hierarchy and replaced them with three loyalists who previously worked for his buddy Dick Cheney.

Right from the beginning the U.S. Army brass opposed the invasion of Iraq for both military and strategic reasons. They believed such an attack would absorb massive human and material resources that would divert from the chase after the 9/11 terrorists and the resolution of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. They disagreed with the paucity of soldiers that Bush/Cheney and Rumsfeld were to send there. They were appalled by the lack of post-war planning directives by the Administration."

February 3, 2010 3:34 PM

guy faulkes said...

All right POV, I will apologize. I am sorry you are a traitorous scumbag and that you have proved so with your posts. I hope you will someday change your evil ways, but as you say, I will not hold my breath until you do.

Sarkazein said...

Typing practice:

You wrote or pasted?-"Right from the beginning the U.S. Army brass opposed the invasion of Iraq for both military and strategic reasons.


Guess what, the word SOME is missing. Making the entire statement false.

Liberal POV said...

Sark

History has proven the word SOME is no longer needed for the military opposition to be correct.
Lets also look at the sentence in front of the one you posted.

" Rumsfeld demoted three military service chiefs in the Pentagon hierarchy and replaced them with three loyalists who previously worked for his buddy Dick Cheney."

"U.S. Army brass opposed the invasion of Iraq for both military and strategic reasons."

Thanks for focusing on the comment.

Sarkazein said...

POV stated-"History has proven the word SOME is no longer needed for the military opposition to be correct"

The liberal mind works in mysterious ways.

Liberal POV said...

Guy

"All right POV, I will apologize. I am sorry you are a traitorous scumbag and that you have proved so with your posts."


Guy you continue to lie, slander and show you're a small dishonest person.

You were unable to back up the lies you posted so you post more lies and personal attacks.

The so called conservatives go with slander and out right lies when they run out of debating points, facts and data to support their myths, opinions and propaganda.

guy faulkes said...

POV, you proved what I said about you. There is no slander. Get over it. Others have said the same except not as bluntly. However, as you are going to remain delusional, there is little point in continuing to show you what you are.

Liberal POV said...

Guy

You continue to lie, slander and show you're a small dishonest person.

Sarkazein said...

I think what POV doesn't realize is how proud most Americans are of their country and its history and how passionate patriots like Guy are about defending it. Just as POV defends with passion Castro, Chavez, Ortega, and Sadaam's superior treatment of prisoners when compared to the US military, a patriot will defend the United States from the enemy within.

Liberal POV said...

Sark

"I think what POV doesn't realize is how proud most Americans are of their country and its history and how passionate patriots like Guy are about defending it."

Lets understand this we have Guy and Sark following a war for profit chickenhawk Dick Cheney over Major Matthew Alexander, who personally conducted 300 interrogations of prisoners in Iraq.

POV is slandered for not believing Dick Cheney and Donald Rumfelt.


Major Matthew Alexander:
"The reason why foreign fighters joined al-Qa'ida in Iraq was overwhelmingly because of abuses at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib and not Islamic ideology," says Major Matthew Alexander, who personally conducted 300 interrogations of prisoners in Iraq.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/torture-it-probably-killed-more-americans-than-911-1674396.html

"Torture? It probably killed more Americans than
9/11"

"Torture or inhumane treatment, even in isolated cases, such as in the case of Khalid Sheikh Mohammad, is not worth the price. The integrity of our country is more important than any singular terrorist attack, even if it costs American lives. "

"I told my soldiers in Iraq that you don't stop being a human when you start being a soldier. Those two things should never be exclusive. "

" We cannot become our enemy in trying to defeat him. We cannot resort to torture or enhanced interrogation techniques. I know what works because I've been there and it's not force.

We must work smarter, not harsher. "

Liberal POV said...

Sark and Guy

Support the level of torture that would cause a young soldier to take her own life after witnessing such a shameful use of the US military.

"US interpreter who witnessed torture in Iraq shot herself with service rifle"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/us-interpreter-who-witnessed-torture-in-iraq-shot-herself-with-service-rifle-1674399.html

Sarkazein said...

POV- Your link to the story starts out: "It is possible that one of the victims of the..." Key word possible.

Remember, as you passionately try to defend your statement that Sadaam treated prisoners better than the US Military, that you are wrong.
Just the fact that there is/was so much controversy over some interrogations, disproves your entire point.

guy faulkes said...

POV, there is little value in continuing this discussion. You are a traitorous scumbag that worships terrorism. Sark and I believe in our country. The facts are on our side. We will never agree with your fantasies and lies.

Mike D. said...

"History has proven the word SOME is no longer needed for the military opposition to be correct." - Liberal POV

Why stop with the word "some"? Semantics is a beautiful tool of manipulation. Why not extend the proposition, and also delete the term "very few"? After all, "very few", mathematically, means exactly the same as "some", right?

Therefore, "very few Americans prefer government run health care" becomes simply "Americans prefer government run health care".

Just like that, a small minority opinion becomes a consensus.

Don't speak Oldspeak. Speak Newspeak!

Liberal POV said...

Mike D

Has the War in Iraq turn out as sold? Has it cost more than $300 billion the General who said it would was fired for saying so?

Liberal POV said...

Sark

"Remember, as you passionately try to defend your statement that Sadaam treated prisoners better than the US Military, that you are wrong. "

Would you cut and paste where I made such a statement? It seem you too are taking the liberty to rearange words and what I posted to continue your support of torture and human rights abuse.

guy faulkes said...

POV, I already did that.

Liberal POV said...

Guy

Really?

Your slander and lies of " you lied in indicating we did not treat wounded prisoners." and "I am sorry you are a traitorous scumbag and that you have proved so with your posts."

Guy you were caught lying because you could counter comments made by me, and post of MajorMatthew--the military's senior interrogator in Iraq in 2006 is an expert.
http://www.vetvoice.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=623 and the story of Shoshana Johnsonon and Jessica Lynch capture and treatment by the Iraqis.

My own comment on that story you atribute your lies to "If the Iraqis can understand this ( Humane treatment of prisoners in US Custody) why can't we?"

This being humane treatment by captors makes better press, improved world opinion, and does not motivate the opposing side to fight harder.

This is not the same as the lie you posted.

Guy you're a dishonest man an extremly petty.

I can and did back that up with your own words.

Liberal POV said...

HD

Time to call down those on your side if you really want an honest debate.

These boys seem to take it personal when the facts don't match their myths.

Sarkazein said...

So POV, are you now writing you do not believe the US Military should follow Sadaam's Iraq on how to treat prisoners (torture, rape, battlefield executions, pushing off 3 story buildings blinfolded, execution of mothers with their children tied to them) ? Have you been shamed into giving a false confession, or do you realize now that you are dead wrong and are throwing yourself on the mercy of the blog?

Liberal POV said...

Sark

I see you also resort to lying when you can no longer can present an honest debate.

You and Guy want to give the government the power of torture and secrecy very similar to that of Sadam with (torture, rape, battlefield executions).

This is the very point Major Matthew Alexander made in the following statement.

" We cannot become our enemy in trying to defeat him. We cannot resort to torture or enhanced interrogation techniques. I know what works because I've been there and it's not force.

We must work smarter, not harsher. "

Sark you to are a dishonest person and a very shallow thinker.

guy faulkes said...

POV, you have told so many different versions of what you said, you do not know what you said originally yourself. It is most amusing to watch you squirm in this manner.

Sarkazein said...

POV, you are geety (pronunciation of the word guilty as pronounced by Judge Candelero at my last traffic ticket court that couldn't speak English). The punishment is to be hanged by your own words.