This blog,originally founded by Blogger, who is listed in Marquis Who's Who and is a recipient of the Albert Nelson Marquis Lifetime Achievement Award. He holds a theological degree and a doctorate in Counseling Psychology. Taught Psychology for 32 years and is now Professor Emeritus. Is a board-certified psychologist and was awarded the Lifetime Achievement Award in his profession. Ministered as a chaplain, and pastored Baptist and Episcopal churches. Publications cover the integration of psychology and theology. Served in the Army, the Merchant Marines and the Peace Corps.

Thursday, January 28, 2010

KSM Trial

***UPDATE***
The New York Post reports:
The trial of 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammed won't be held in lower Manhattan and could take place in a military tribunal at Guantanamo Bay, sources said last night.

Administration officials said that no final decision had been made but that officials of the Department of Justice and the White House were working feverishly to find a venue that would be less expensive and less of a security risk than New York City.

The back-to-the-future Gitmo option was reported yesterday by Fox News and was not disputed by White House officials.
Read more here.
****


The problem isn't the venue it's the process. KSM should be in Gitmo awaiting a military tribunal. Is this the first step?

121 comments:

Honest Debate said...

Did Scott Brown's win influence this decision?

Sarkazein said...

Wake up liberals, they are unlawful combatants. Just follow the Geneva Convention and it's easy.

Honest Debate said...

Sark,

Warn us next time, I threw up a little in my mouth.

bridle said...

Why should he get a military tribunal? He doesn't belong to any army.

Honest Debate said...

He's a enemy combatant caught on the battlefield. It would have been perfectly acceptable to kill him on that battlefield. He masterminded an act of war, 9/11. He's not a citizen. Since he didn't wear an army uniform he's not even entitled to the protections of the Geneva Convention. The good thing is we got good intelligence from him while he was at Gitmo that prevented the destruction of the Library Tower in L.A. and saved thousands of lives. We blew it with Abdulmutallab.

Honest Debate said...

It's official.

Honest Debate said...

The newly elected Senator from Massachusetts said it best:

"And let me say this, with respect to those who wish to harm us, I believe that our Constitution and laws exist to protect this nation - they do not grant rights and privileges to enemies in wartime. In dealing with terrorists, our tax dollars should pay for weapons to stop them, not lawyers to defend them." -Scott Brown

bridle said...

He was captured in Pakistan. We are not at war with Pakistan. He is a citizen of Kuwait. We are not at war with Kuwait. How do you know he masterminded anything? He has never had a trial. He has never been convicted of anything.
He is possibly a member of the Muslim Brotherhood which is a kind of Muslim Mafia. Are Mafia thugs enemy combatants too?

Sarkazein said...

Bridle asked-"Why should he get a military tribunal? He doesn't belong to any army."

Neither were many of the Nazis tried by the US Military Tribunal.

Sarkazein said...

Unlawful combatants are likewise subject to capture and detention, but in addition they are subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals for acts which render their belligerency unlawful. The spy who secretly and without uniform passes the military lines of a belligerent in time of war, seeking to gather military information and communicate it to the enemy, or an enemy combatant who without uniform comes secretly through the lines for the purpose of waging war by destruction of life or property, are familiar examples of belligerents who are generally deemed not to be entitled to the status of prisoners of war, but to be offenders against the law of war subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals.(Emphasis added)

Honest Debate said...

I'm not sure I get the mafia thug question. Any criminal that's an American citizen is protected by our Constitution.

I also don't understand the relevance of him being a Kuwaiti or being captured in Pakistan. He's not an American citizen and he was caught in the battlefield. Do you support treating him like a American criminal?

He confessed to masterminding 9/11.

Sarkazein said...

Enemy combatants are legal combatants and entitled to rights under the GC.

Unlawful combatants are not, and receive Military Tribunals. KSM is an unlawful combatant, not an enemy combatant.

Honest Debate said...

Thanks for the clarification Sark.

Honest Debate said...

I don't buy LiberalPOV's argument that we have helped recruit more terrorist but a public trial of KSM giving him a world stage would.

Sarkazein said...

The "battlefield" is any where the US forces say it is.
So in fact, he was captured on the battlefield. Even Obama sends missiles into the Pakistan battlefield.
If we send a drone into Yemen it is the battlefield.

Sarkazein said...

If we wipe out and/or capture a terrorist cell of foreign terrorists in Detroit, it is the battlefield, and they are unlawful combatants. Obama may decide as CIC to treat them like American citizens, but that's his foolishness.

Sarkazein said...

The airplane on Christmas Day with the Underpants bomber became the battlefield.

Bridle, if you are looking for lines of cannons and rows of soldiers, you are in the wrong century.

Honest Debate said...

Sark,

Do you think it will happen? Obama caved on having the trial in Manhattan, will he cave on the military tribunal? There's a lot of pressure from both sides.

Honest Debate said...

Sark, you wrote: "Enemy combatants are legal combatants and entitled to rights under the GC."

Does the Geneva Convention entitle enemy combatants to a U.S. trial with all the protections thereof? Does it prohibit military tribunals?

Sarkazein said...

H.D- Imagine as a young Muslim you hear of the US blowing up Muslim terrorists as they drive down a Yemeni street with a hell-fire missile operated by a 4 striper holding a joy stick in Kansas. Imagine him hearing of Muslim terrorists being held indefinitely in a chain-link cage at GITMO. As all Muslim terrorists are cowards, can't you see where enlisting in to the Muslim terrorist groups would be their choice?

POV- Would you scan a copy of the AlQaeda membership list from pre-GITMO and scan a copy of the current membership list, so I can compare the numbers? You can redact name.

Sarkazein said...

Enemy combatants cannot be put on trial by any court except for crimes committed while a prisoner.
If there is a war crimes trial for an enemy combatant, it is a Military tribunal. But an enemy combatant can- not be put on trial for being the enemy in legal warfare. Pretty much always it is the victor that has war crimes trials, not the looser.

Sarkazein said...

H.D- I don't know if Obama will cave on the NYC/KSM trial. This O-J-T for the junior senator from Illinois is hell. This is like a rookie with no boss. The only O-J-T he can get is an often bloodied nose. I HOPE the country survives.

bridle said...

He confessed? Don't you know that confessions obtained by torture have been known to be worthless since about the 1700's? Again, all you know is what you have been told by people who have no interest in telling you the truth.
Again - How is he different from a Mafia thug?

Sark - The Nazi's were German soldiers - We actually were at war with Germany. And we prosecuted Nazi's in an international court for crimes including torture by waterboarding.

Liberal POV said...

HD and Mob

"How could Sheikh Mohammed's water-boarded confession have prevented the Library Tower attack if the Bush administration "broke up" that attack during the previous year? It couldn't, of course. Conceivably the Bush administration, or at least parts of the Bush administration, didn't realize until Sheikh Mohammed confessed under torture that it had already broken up a plot to blow up the Library Tower about which it knew nothing. Stranger things have happened. But the plot was already a dead letter. If foiling the Library Tower plot was the reason to water-board Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, then that water-boarding was more than cruel and unjust. It was a waste of water."

http://www.slate.com/id/2216601/

Liberal POV said...

Lynch Mob Activist including HD, Guy, Sark and Senator Brown and Ms Foxx

Americans are not the only humans entitled to human rights.

We have plenty of American criminals ( Jeffery Dahmer, The sniper in Washington, The terrorist that killed the abortion doctor) whom we gave their day in court.

If you believe in the rule of law and human rights you believe it applies to all humans.

What do you think seperates the Republican mind set ( those posting here, Mr Brown) from a mob calling for a lynching?

Honest Debate said...

Bridle,

I already addressed the mafia thug thing. Go back. Sark explained it better than I, reread (assuming you read) his post.

KSM was not tortured, he's fine. Just a little nasal rinse. It worked too. Maybe torture doesn't work but water boarding does. The Library Tower still stands. I should rephrase the confession thing, he bragged and beat his chest in triumphant pleasure that he masterminded 9/11.

bridle said...

POV - Isn't it amazing how terrified some conservatives seem to be of certain criminals? They seem to believe that Muslim terrorists,despite being held in maximum security conditions, have magical powers, and can disappear and reappear to wreak havoc on innocent citizens. But they can't cross a body of water to land in America, so we have to keep them in Cuba. It must be witchcraft!
Or maybe conservatives have been reading too many comic books , or listening to Sarah Palin, which is pretty much the same thing.

Honest Debate said...

"And we prosecuted Nazi's in an international court for crimes including torture by waterboarding." -Bridle

It wasn't waterboarding it was drowning. Tubs of water not a nasal rinse. There was horrific torture. Where do you get your facts, CNN? Did the trials include any other crimes. Maybe gassing 6 million Jews to death?

Honest Debate said...

Ahh, personal ad hominem attacks again. That's cool, it just makes ya'll look silly. Be careful Bridle because Bridle doesn't like that sort of thing.

Honest Debate said...

Lib,

Thank you for finally admitting that waterboarding got accurate information out of KSM. It's a start.

bridle said...

"I'm not sure I get the mafia thug question. Any criminal that's an American citizen is protected by our Constitution."

HD- Mafia thugs are not necessarily American citizens. They are members of criminal gangs, like Al Qaeda. And what does citizenship or nationality have to do with justice anyway?
By definition, justice means everyone gets a fair trial. Otherwise, it's not justice.

If you think that KSM is a soldier, then he cannot be prosecuted for fighting against American soldiers.

Sarkazein said...

Bridlewrote-"If you think that KSM is a soldier, then he cannot be prosecuted for fighting against American soldiers."

WHO thinks KSM is a soldier? You type and you type, and they eat the pages.
Come on Bridle!

Honest Debate said...

"They are members of criminal gangs, like Al Qaeda." - Bridle


Therein lies the problem. Al Qaeda is not a "criminal gang".

Sarkazein said...

H.D- " I should rephrase the confession thing, he bragged and beat his chest in triumphant pleasure that he masterminded 9/11."


They say he enjoyed talking about it.

bridle said...

A nasal rinse. How clever you are to minimize an experience other people undergo. All you have to do is rename something, and it is transformed from a vicious crime to a cuddly cute little interlude.
I am constantly amazed at how barbaric we humans still are at heart. Are you OK with our soldiers - my son or your daughter for instance - being "nasal rinsed"?

I never did understand the whole concept of, everything is OK as long as it gets the results you desire. Theft, murder, slavery, and torture are all effective ways to achieve some desired ends.
I guess if you are a "conservative", anything goes as long as it gets you what you want.

Honest Debate said...

Let's bottom line this thing. I think I understand, tell me where I've got you wrong Bridle and Lib.

There is no global jihad against America supported by religious theocracies. America is in no danger just your average criminals perpetrating average crimes. Those who believe that we are fighting to save civilization as we know it are not just mistaken. We are power hungry masochist. We love this sort of thing. We don't believe in justice. We don't believe in human rights.

Have I got it?

bridle said...

"Al Qaeda is not a "criminal gang".

Are they a legitimate nation? Are they a democratically elected government? What the heck are they then?

Honest Debate said...

"Are you OK with our soldiers - my son or your daughter for instance - being "nasal rinsed"?" -Bridle

Alas, I'm childless so your question is hypothetical...but a good one.

All our most elite special forces are waterboarded as part of their training. We've waterboarded thousands of our own. If I had a son or daughter that was of high enough caliber to be a Navy Seal for instance I would be proud as punch.

That's my honest answer.

Honest Debate said...

"What the heck are they then?" -Bridle

The enemy.

Sarkazein said...

Bridle asked-"Are they a legitimate nation? Are they a democratically elected government? What the heck are they then?"


UNLAWFUL COMBATANTS.

Liberal POV said...

HD

"Those who believe that we are fighting to save civilization as we know it are not just mistaken."

In Vietnam a reported ask the officer in charge why they were burning the the village his reply " we have to destroy the village to save the village".
HD you and others in your mob don't save civilization as we know it by becoming barbarians and a lynch mob. Human rights apply to all humans.
Why is the concept of the Golden Rule absent from your conscience? What has Fox News and Hate radio done to your own morality and sense of justice?
When you answer bridle's question "Are you OK with our soldiers - my son or your daughter for instance - being "nasal rinsed"? "
this about the Goldern Rule.

This is not about Al Qaeda it about what kind of people and civilization we as Americans are.

Sarkazein said...

Bridle, do yourself a favor and read the Geneva Convention Accords. I had first gone by memory and common sense in debating the liberals about terrorists being treated as POWs. Well POW status didn't make any sense as the GC's intent was to give rights to soldiers who fought legally, could surrender under the authority of a commander, bravely marked themselves as a soldier, carried a visable weapon to show they were a combatant and their leadership had signed on to the agreement. Terrorists have done none of this, so by international law they deserve no rights. Justice is an incorrect term.

Honest Debate said...

This is the way they debate Sark. You tell them, they ignore. You might as well beat your head against the wall, it would be more productive.

Another tactic is to change the argument instead of refuting it. Notice it was Bridle that compared the "waterboarding" done by NAZI's to the techniques used by us. There is factually no comparison, the talking points are that they are the same. It's just not true and I provided expert testimony to back it up. What does Bridle do? He changes the argument to my (actually yours) terminology and continues to believe the actions were analogous.

That's not honest debate.

bridle said...

HD- Your analysis is simplistic. It is evident that you believe in justice and human rights for some people, but not all. It is evident that you trust "the government" to decide who is guilty. You don't value the thousands of years that it took to create our imperfect system of justice, that is still the best system there is. You are so blinded by fear that you would succumb to a mob mentality and justify any cruelty or horrors to feel an illusion of safety. As Thomas Paine said, you have an avidity to punish, which is always dangerous to liberty.


There is a network of criminals united by religious beliefs who would like to bring down our democracy. By reacting emotionally and hysterically, we are in the process of accomplishing their goals for them. Al Qaeda did not have to strike America after 9/11 to weaken us. We spent ourselves into bankruptcy, divided our forces with wars on two fronts, and began dismantling the basic tenets of our democracy with the Patriot Act. We provided a fantastic recruiting tool for their jihad with Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo prison.
I believe that we cannot justify the means by the ends, because the means will corrupt the ends. I believe we cannot overcome our enemies by becoming like them.
" If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." – James Madison

Honest Debate said...

When you answer bridle's question "Are you OK with our soldiers - my son or your daughter for instance - being "nasal rinsed"? - Lib

Answered it, three post up.

Sarkazein said...

I'll answer your goofy question. If my son was a terrorist intentionally killing the innocent, I'd hold the hose. As he is a proud member of the Harris County Sheriff's Office and the Texas State Guard, I don't think that will happen. But, I'll keep the hose handy just in case.

Honest Debate said...

Lib, 8 post up not 3.

Honest Debate said...

Lib,

Hell I can't keep up it 10 or 11 now. It's January 30, 2010 8:56 AM. Check it out as it was a good answer. Almost as good as Sarks.

bridle said...

HD- Most American soldiers are not SEALs, and what does that have to do with the question anyway?

They are the "enemy" and thus all is justified? Have you ever read 1984?

Honest Debate said...

"...we are in the process of accomplishing their goals for them." -Bridle

If you are talking about the 72 virgin thing then I hope you're right.

bridle said...

Sark - Wouldn't you want your kid to have a fair trial first?

Sarkazein said...

Bridle-

Let me give you a related common sense scenario.
If you saw a person about to murder or rape your child or parent, would you use deadly force to stop it?
If the answer is yes, then you decided not to give the murderer or rapist a lawyer, a trial, a sentence, you summarily executed him/her.
Point being, not everything is the same.
Same with pirates. The pirates Obama ordered executed, received no trial, no lawyer, and were being towed by a US Naval ship. It's all different.
Read the GC accords.

Honest Debate said...

Bridle,

I answered your question.

"Most American soldiers are not SEALs"

Most unlawful combatants are not suicidal terrorist. Only three warranted waterboarding. We've waterboarded much more of our own. Square that.

Wasn't the question, "how would I feel if my child was waterboarded"? Proud as punch if it was part of training to be a SEAL. On the other end I'll go with Sark's answer.

Sarkazein said...

Bridle- "a trial first?"


I'll answer your goofy question. If my son was a terrorist intentionally killing the innocent, I'd hold the hose.

Liberal POV said...

HD

You missed most of this:

HD

"Those who believe that we are fighting to save civilization as we know it are not just mistaken."

In Vietnam a reported ask the officer in charge why they were burning the the village his reply " we have to destroy the village to save the village".
HD you and others in your mob don't save civilization as we know it by becoming barbarians and a lynch mob. Human rights apply to all humans.
Why is the concept of the Golden Rule absent from your conscience? What has Fox News and Hate radio done to your own morality and sense of justice?

This is not about Al Qaeda it about what kind of people and civilization we as Americans are.

January 30, 2010 9:10 AM

Sarkazein said...

"They are the "enemy" and thus all is justified? Have you ever read 1984?" -Bridle
FICTION


9/11- Reality

Sarkazein said...

POV in another century all together.

Sarkazein said...

Damn I HOPE POV and Obama don't think alike on everything.

He thinks terrorists go by the Golden Rule.
If we just think nice, nice will happen.

Incredible ignorance. Which wouldn't be so bad if he were not allowed to go near a voting booth.

Liberal POV said...

Sark

I'm sure Sadaam you logic similar to your to justify his atrocities.


HD's remarks "we are fighting to save civilization as we know it "

How is this accomplished in a fear induced mob fever?

We in America have the likes of Fox News, Rush, Sark, Guy and Dick Cheney fueling mob mentality and actively slashing the fabric of the civilazation HD wants to save.

Sarkazein said...

POV wrote-"How is this accomplished in a fear induced mob fever?"


This only exists in your mind, so it is hard for the rational to relate.

Sarkazein said...

One particular violation of the GC (international law) is a "show trial". Obama describes the NYC/KSM trial as a "show trial". If AlQeada wins the war, Obama and Holder can be put on trial as war criminals for having a "show trial"
Obama has assured conviction, and wants the world to see our "justice" AKA a "show trial".

Sarkazein said...

The above comment takes the stance that POV and Bridle are correct and the terrorists deserve protection under international law. They don't.

guy faulkes said...

I'm sure Sadaam you logic similar to your to justify his atrocities. - POV

What does this mean? Sorry Reader, but POV needs to be coherent if he make a statement on a post. This statement is gibberish.

In order to receive the benefits of the Geneva Convention, you have to have signed the accords. The terrorists have not done so. They do not qualify.

We are engaged in a war on terrorists, many of which belong to a religion embracing lessor jihad. These people are not limited to the definition of a country. As Sark says they are unlawful combatants.

They started the war with their attacks. We have to finish it. We do this by tearing up things and killing terrorists until they give up. Whatever it takes to make them surrender is what should be done.

This job is made much harder by the actions of supporters of terrorists such as POV and possibly Bridle.

POV, thank you for including me in your list of patriots.

Liberal POV said...

Sark and other members of the lynch mob

"The above comment takes the stance that POV and Bridle are correct and the terrorists deserve protection under international law."

POV and Bridle takes the stance that terrorists SUSPECTS deserve protection under international law as reguard to human treatment once in US custody as would any other human being.

Sarkazein said...

POV- And you would be wrong.

Honest Debate said...

"POV and Bridle takes the stance that terrorists SUSPECTS deserve protection under international law as reguard to human treatment once in US custody as would any other human being." -LiberalPOV

"Deserve" is a subjective term. The Geneva Convention and our own 200+ years of history disagree with LiberalPOV and Bridle.

Who should we listen to?

Liberal POV said...

HD

"The Geneva Convention and our own 200+ years of history disagree with LiberalPOV and Bridle. "

Please explain? We in the US do have violent history of lynch mobs. Is that what you refer to?

Do you want a civilized world? If so you have the give people ALL suspects human treatment and act as a civilized society not a lynch mob as Dick Cheney and Senator Brown advocate.

Honest Debate said...

"Lynch Mob Activist including HD, Guy, Sark and Senator Brown and Ms Foxx"

"What has Fox News and Hate radio done to your own morality and sense of justice?"

"We in America have the likes of Fox News, Rush, Sark, Guy and Dick Cheney fueling mob mentality and actively slashing the fabric of the civilazation HD wants to save." -LiberalPOV

I just want to point out that in my opinion remarks like this are far far more insulting, meaningless, rude, worthless and plain stupid than anything I've seen from anyone else on this blog. The clincher is that LiberalPOV truly believes it. It's hideous...but will remain. So will he and he's too shameless to stop on his own.

Honest Debate said...

Will someone else please explain it to Lib? I give up. I'm going to gag myself with a jackhammer. It will be more pleasurable.

Reader said...

Guy, I agree...I didn't understand it either. You are still mad at me over my comment aren't you? Darn it, I don't like someone mad at me, so stop.

Honest Debate said...

My request for someone to explain to Lib refers to my post at 12:48 and his response at 12:57. I figured I better be a little more specific because there are lots of things that Lib needs explained to him.

Honest Debate said...

Reader,

Are you sitting on your mailbox waiting for help like you did the last storm?

Just kidding, I'm sure you're fine and cozy. I am a little worried about Lib though, it's cold on the mailbox.

Seriously, we got about 8 inches here in Bethlehem, how much snow did ya'll get? Is it still coming down?

Liberal POV said...

HD

Don't dodge the question or take my words out of context.

"The Geneva Convention and our own 200+ years of history disagree with LiberalPOV and Bridle. "

Please explain? We in the US do have violent history of lynch mobs. Is that what you refer to?

Do you want a civilized world? If so you have the give ALL suspects humane treatment and act as a civilized society not as a lynch mob.

Honest Debate said...

Ughh

Liberal POV said...

HD

Please explain the difference between a suspect in US custody being torture( Actions you and others here support ) in a few cases to death and a lynch mob?

Honest Debate said...

Lib,

No.

Reader said...

HD, I waited and waited on that food drop, but it never came. I just decided to buy my own food, with my own money. I haven't seen a dime from the disaster assistance yet from the other storm, but still waiting on it to come in. Had to pay for my own heating oil too...which came in handy, cause it's 21 degrees up here. I've also been out shoveling, because no one would come by and do it for me. I just don't know what I'm doing wrong...I don't like paying for all this myself. Lib, you got any ideas where I can get assistance?

Seriously, we probably got around 8or 9 inches so far in Boone, maybe more. Still falling and probably will continue right on.

HD, Lib won't get it until it's too late. Seems some of the liberals are not running again this time...what's up with that? I did enjoy the little meeting Obama had with the Republicans the other day. Uh uh uh...it was interesting. No teleprompter.

bridle said...

HD- "Deserve" is a subjective term. The Geneva Convention and our own 200+ years of history disagree with LiberalPOV and Bridle. "

What the heck are you talking about? Where in the Geneva conventions or the constitution are torture and kangaroo courts condoned?

Honest Debate said...

Gee Wiz guys, I guess I'll explain but I don't understand what's confusing.

Lib wrote: "POV and Bridle takes the stance that terrorists SUSPECTS deserve protection under international law as reguard to human treatment once in US custody as would any other human being."

I am simply saying that the Geneva convention disagrees with that statement as unlawful combatants are excluded. The Geneva Convention does not say that unlawful combatants deserve it's protection. In America it has been this way for 200+ years. Obama is the first.

Honest Debate said...

Reader,

I've given up on the food drop or any help at all. If I could just get someone to feel sorry for me I'd feel better...or better yet if I knew some rich guy somewhere was cold that would help.

Honest Debate said...

Bridle,

So military tribunals are now "kangaroo courts"? Do you prefer something more O.J. Simpsonish?

You've jumped the shark.

Honest Debate said...

I'll put this on the front page as an update as well but the Libs will disappear if it turns out to be true. For me, hat tip Obama.

From the New York Post:

The trial of 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammed won't be held in lower Manhattan and could take place in a military tribunal at Guantanamo Bay, sources said last night.

Administration officials said that no final decision had been made but that officials of the Department of Justice and the White House were working feverishly to find a venue that would be less expensive and less of a security risk than New York City.

The back-to-the-future Gitmo option was reported yesterday by Fox News and was not disputed by White House officials.

Honest Debate said...

Here's a quote from that most radical of right wing hawks, Susan Collins:

"...this administration cannot see a foreign terrorist even when he stands right in front of them, fresh from an attempt to blow a plane out of the sky on Christmas Day."

Watch it here.

Sark, she even backs you up on the "battlefield" explanation you gave Bridle.

Sarkazein said...

H.D- She used the enemy combatant term incorrectly, but I understood what she meant.
Was she recorded at 45 and played at 33 1/3?

Holder should be fired for malfeasance and Obama should either CHANGE the decision, or resign.

Honest Debate said...

Sark,

I noticed the "enemy combatant" thing too. I made the same mistake but thanks to you I now know the difference.

I think the Gitmo tribunal will happen if the White House isn't denying it at this point. It's the right thing to do. As to Abdulmutallab heads should roll. It was a much more powerful message because of the messenger. It gives me hope for RINO's. I may just drop the "O" in regards to Collins.

Honest Debate said...

Sark,

Do you get the feeling that Bridle and Lib will comment no further now that Obama is considering doing what we've been saying all along? Or will they accuse him of watching too much Foxnews?

Honest Debate said...

"...Obama should either CHANGE the decision, or resign." -Sarkazein

Guy Faulkes has been saying Obama will be impeached for a year now and I'm starting to agree. His actions are treasonous.

guy faulkes said...

Reader, I am not mad at you. On the contrary, I was going out of my way to try to explain why I was continuing to do the things over which you appear to be mad at me.

I have had to work hard all my life to be able to communicate with the written word acceptably. When I was marginally able to do so, I had teachers that would not believe I could do it. This issue is a sore spot with me, especially when I come into contact with those that will not try to improve themselves in their writing skills. I try to do so every day. This is one reason I enjoy blogs so much. There is no better place to practice writing.

My complaint was with POV's dismal failure at communication, not you. One cannot debate another person unless he has at least a vague idea of what that person is trying to say. Of course this is a mute point as one cannot debate POV in any case. His religious beliefs will not allow him to consider logic.

LIberal POV said...

HD

"Guy Faulkes has been saying Obama will be impeached for a year now and I'm starting to agree. His actions are treasonous."

Hey now that's the kind of sensationalism I've been talking about.

Lets get the rating up on Watauga Conservtive.

Honest Debate?

guy faulkes said...

Obama does have a good chance of being impeached if a through investigation of ACORN is preformed by a non-biased, non-partisan committee. That statement contains no sensationalism, only probability..

Honest Debate said...

Guy,

When I came to this blog certain commenters elicited in my mind certain descriptions. Blogger=wise and insightful. Sarkazein=biting wit and unique perspective. Shyster= jerk. LiberalPOV="you've got to be kidding". Reader = compassion. For what it's worth, coming from me Guy Faulkes has always equaled well-spoken, even when we disagree. You've taught yourself well. I also share your passion for the written word and the pursuit of excellence.

Liberal POV said...

HD and Guy

Why do the standards you apply ACORN (an organization designed to give the poorest in our society a political voice and opportunity) to the dental industry after the Small Smiles Clinic Scandal, or insurance (AIG) , banking ( Country Wide ) Power ( ENRON )?

guy faulkes said...

POV, when you make your question coherent, maybe I will answer it. As you have written it, it means nothing. I do not know what you are asking.

Reader said...

Guy, I shouldn't have meddled. I apologize.

I could do better with the compassionate part HD, but thank you for your kindness.

Liberal POV said...

Guy

ACORN is an organization setup to give a political voice and opportunity to the poorest of our nation.
The offices are often set up in poor crime ridden neighborhoods, often employing people from that neighborhood. It seems the real crime of ACORN was empowering the poor.

" Having organized half a million members into 1,200 neighborhood chapters in 110 cities and 39 states, the group has become our nation's most effective voice of, by, and for modest-income families."

". Also, the boyfriend had showed up at the office in the preppy attire of a college student, but in the released video snippets he appears in the garb of a pimp. Neither the videographers nor Fox News have been willing to make the full video available for review by ACORN or the news media."

http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12439&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=22661&tx_ttnews[backPid]=12387&cHash=8a7beac972

Why did YOU not apply the same standards to the Dental Industry when the story broke about the Small Smiles Dental Clinic about children being sujected to extremely painful unnecessary procedures for profit?
This could also apply to all the other scandals corporate greed hae been involved in Country Wide, AIG, ENRON.

Youseem to have a different standard when it comes to the poor.

guy faulkes said...

POV, not at all. People that break the rule of law should be punished. ACORN was set up to do the things you mentioned. Unfortunately the organization became corrupt, so much so that many of its leaders protested and are now excised by the organization. Voter fraud and teaching people how to circumvent the law are only a small part of the abuses of ACRON. Due to Obama's connection to this vile organization, I believe that a through investigation of ACORN could result in his impeachment and maybe even his removal from office.

I believe that the Obama administration was also tied to AIG was it not? As for Enron, if a law was broken, prosecute those that broke it.

I do not agree with your assessment that if one person breaks a law, it is alright for everyone to break it. If you cannot successfully prove a person is guilty, they are innocent.

This is why a through non-biased, non-partisan investigation of ACORN is needed. There seems to be a lot of guilt that could be disclosed. If any other groups warrant it, they should be investigated also.

Thank you to the person that translated POV's post.

Liberal POV said...

Guy

I think there was some wrong doing at ACORN but not on the scale you and FOX news have hyped it.

I too would like to see non-biased, non-partisan investigation of ACORN.

Folks like Rush, O'Reilly, Glen Beck and Sensationalized media AIN"T that.

Has anyone in management of ACORN been found guilty of anything?

guy faulkes said...

Has anyone in management of ACORN been found guilty of anything? Yes Check releases such as this.

http://standupforamerica.wordpress.com/2009/09/18/acorn-time-to-roast-the-nuts-over-an-open-fire/

Liberal POV said...

Guy

You gave me a right wing site.
Who has been convicted and what crime were they convicteed of and what position in ACORN did they hold?
Surely with all of the hype and constant reporting on FOX and air time on Rush, Glen Beck someone important has been convicted of something?

guy faulkes said...

The site listed sources. Go to them. Note they are not links so you will have to do some research. This probably will prevent you from doing so as you never have an original thought.

Liberal POV said...

Guy

Your copping out.

Who has been convicted and what crime were they convicteed of and what position in ACORN did they hold?
Surely with all of the hype and constant reporting on FOX and air time on Rush, Glen Beck someone important has been convicted of something?

I really believed you would find at least one.

Honest Debate said...

Gee Wiz Lib! KSM's trial has been moved disgracing Obama and Holder. The White house is floating trail balloons about sending him back to Gitmo for a military tribunal. And you want to revisit ACORN?

Did you know this site limited comments to 4,096 characters? I didn't until I tried to paste the ACORN indictments.

Liberal POV said...

HD

I don't need a list of any one who ever worked for ACORN just thoses in higher management the last five years with job related convictions.

Keep it simple Directors, regional managers, convicted of what.

I will be disappointed if Obama caves to the political pressure and hyped fear.

Moving the trial will give Al Qaeda a victory knowing they can still force Washington and New York City to react.

guy fauleks said...

POV, I gave you one with many sources. I do not care if you are to lazy to use it or to stupid to believe it..

Liberal POV said...

Guy

"POV, I gave you one with many sources. I do not care if you are to lazy to use it or to stupid to believe it.."

You can't find it can you? The hype out weighs the substances.

guy faulkes said...

Alright POV, I will give you a hint. Look up two brothers that are high up in the ACORN organization along with the term embezzlement. I thought even you had more sense than to defend ACORN.

guy faulkes said...

You might also look up Senator Mike Johanns.


“ACORN has been in legal trouble in several states with raid after raid on their offices by officials looking into voter fraud. More than 30 ACORN officials have been convicted of fraud and new allegations of fraud are surfacing by the day,” Johanns said. “It’s wrong to give tax dollars to a group with multiple convictions of undermining our democratic process and our laws. So, I’m introducing measures to stop the federal funding of ACORN.” – Senator Mike Johanns

That is enough help. Educate yourself. You migght then be able to retain the information if you have ot work for it.

Sarkazein said...

Both sides of the aisle vote to cut off funds for their illegal actions, and the POV still doesn't believe it.

Liberal POV said...

Guy

"“ACORN has been in legal trouble in several states with raid after raid on their offices by officials looking into voter fraud. More than 30 ACORN officials have been convicted of fraud and new allegations of fraud are surfacing by the day,” Johanns said. “It’s wrong to give tax dollars to a group with multiple convictions of undermining our democratic process and our laws. So, I’m introducing measures to stop the federal funding of ACORN.” – Senator Mike Johanns"

This is a political speach.

Just give me who got convicted, of what crime, what position they were in at ACORN. please noone outside of management as ACORN employed thousands in poor communities and I give you they could have some employee problems.

Show me that reality matches the hype.
I'm not claiming non exsist but I do claim ACORN was under attack by the right for being effective and any and all issues were hyped by the likes of O'Reilly, Rush and Fox.

Sarkazein said...

The spokesman for Obama, Mr Potato Head, assured the fix was in for the KSM show trial again today.

Gibbs won't commit to civilian trial for KSM

White House press secretary Robert Gibbs declined several opportunities on Sunday to say whether Khalid Sheikh Mohammed would be tried in a federal or military court.

“He will be brought to justice, and he will likely be executed for the heinous crimes he has committed,” Gibbs said on CNN's "State of the Union." “That you can be sure of.”

Honest Debate said...

“He will be brought to justice, and he will likely be executed for the heinous crimes he has committed,” Gibbs said on CNN's "State of the Union." “That you can be sure of.”

Innocent until proven guilty?

Tainted jury?

Liberal POV said...

HD and Sark

What could Gibbs have said that you would have approved ?

How would you phrase the same issue in Gibb's positions?
What would pass the GOP script.
I assume we have some Republicans speaking to the issue of KSM. Do any call for a lynching or something close?

Honest Debate said...

Lib,

Do you think the office of the President of the United States proclaiming guilt and sentencing the defendant to death before the trial has begun is justice?

Is it enough to get the case thrown out?

Sarkazein said...

POV asked-"What would pass the GOP script.(?)

"I have been asked by the President to read to you, his letter of resignation for tainting the jury and causing a dismissal due to pre-trial prejudice."

Liberal POV said...

HD

"Do you think the office of the President of the United States proclaiming guilt and sentencing the defendant to death before the trial has begun is justice?

Is it enough to get the case thrown out?"

No and No

The death sentence may be good domestic politics but will not help us win the war against Al Qaeda.

guy faulkes said...

So in other words, you want to save the lives of your terrorist heroes.

Reader said...

Lib, I did come across this about ACORN employees. I always thought management trained employees. I could be wrong.

http://www.rottenacorn.com/activityMap.html

Liberal POV said...

Reader


Acorn is under attack because they wer getting the poor to vote.

Ask yourself if the wealthy want poor peole to vote?

The name of your web address (Rottenacorn ) may give a clue this is a biased site and you may want to ask yourself who is funding the site?

Lets look at one.

" 2008 The New York Post reported that ACORN submitted a voter registration card for a 7-year-old Bridgeport girl. Another 8,000 cards from the same city will be scrutinized for possible fraud."

Did the 7 year old vote?
Did Acorn by law have to submit the card to registration office?
Did the Acorn employee fill out the card?
Was the Acorn employee required to turn in the voter registration card knowing it contained a 7 year's name?

This link has some prospective:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brad-friedman/gops-acorn-voter-fraud-li_b_132844.html

Honest Debate said...

"Ask yourself if the wealthy want poor peole to vote?" -LiberalPOV

Why on earth would anyone object to someone voting based on their income? I can only guess where that mindset comes from. Do you want the rich to vote?

I suppose if, like Bridle, you think poor people are stupid then there may be a case to make. Bridle's wrong on that.

guy faulkes said...

ACORN is being investigated for being a criminal organization that participated in voter fraud and trying to teach people how to circumvent laws. They are so bad that they may bring down the administration. End of Story.

Liberal POV said...

Guy and HD


If ACORN is as bad as you say.

Just give me who got convicted, of what crime, what position they were in at ACORN. please noone outside of management as ACORN employed thousands in poor communities and I give you they could have some employee problems.

Show me that reality matches the hype.
I'm not claiming its non exsist but I do claim ACORN was under attack by the right for being effective and any and all issues were hyped by the likes of O'Reilly, Rush and Fox.