This blog,originally founded by Blogger, who is listed in Marquis Who's Who and is a recipient of the Albert Nelson Marquis Lifetime Achievement Award. He holds a theological degree and a doctorate in Counseling Psychology. Taught Psychology for 32 years and is now Professor Emeritus. Is a board-certified psychologist and was awarded the Lifetime Achievement Award in his profession. Ministered as a chaplain, and pastored Baptist and Episcopal churches. Publications cover the integration of psychology and theology. Served in the Army, the Merchant Marines and the Peace Corps.

Tuesday, February 2, 2010

The Best Health Care In The World

Why would the premier of Newfoundland, a man with access to the finest Canadian health care available, come to America for heart surgery?


46 comments:

Liberal POV said...

HD

You have posted an apples and oranges thread.

Canada has a much better Health Care System then the USA. Lower infant mortality, longer life expectancy, fewer citizens file bankruptcy because of medical bills, all Canadians have access to medical care. Some how having access to medical care lowers crime.

Within the borders of the United States we have some of the best if not the best medical treatment for specific aliments in the world.

oatz said...

Two Fruits and Liberal POV still does not get that the better system is in America for Health Care.

Liberal POV said...

Oatz

"Two Fruits and Liberal POV still does not get that the better system is in America for Health Care."

Your opinion is based on what study?

Life expectancy?
Infant mortality?
Bankrupcys due to medical expenses?
Crime rate?
Preventive medicine?
Wealth of Medical Professionals?

Wher does the Small Smiles Dental Clinic fit into that statement?

Would you post some non right wing propaganda to support that comment?

Honest Debate said...

Lib,

You do have a point in that access and quality are indeed two separate issues. You asked Oatz to back up his statements, I'd like you to back up yours. Tell me why you think infant mortality or life expectancy have anything to do with the quality of health care?

guy faulkes said...

POV, add to HD's request and tell us how these factors are affected by the availability of health care. Please take into account Wic and Medicaid for infants. Add to your list tort reform, availability of purchasing insurance, ets.

We will answer your questions as soon as you do. When you make a statement that is relevant to the thread and backed up by something, we will address it.

Liberal POV said...

HD

We need to ask what New Zealand is doing right?

Both are used to measure preventable deaths and quality of health care as well as lifestyle. Being a conservative state doesn't seem to improve in either group.

Notice the state by state breakdown.

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/hea_inf_dea_rat-health-infant-death-rate

This shows a lot about the American health care system.

http://www.good.is/post/cost-of-health-care-by-country-as-compared-to-life-expectancy/

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/hea_inf_dea_rat-health-infant-death-rate

Here's another view :

http://www.webmd.com/news/20060913/top-states-for-life-expectancy?page=2

This is by country Life Expectance

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html


Infant mortality by country

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html

Both

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004393.html

Cost of Health Care and life expectancy

http://blogs.ngm.com/.a/6a00e0098226918833012876a6070f970c-800wi

guy faulkes said...

What points are you trying to make with your links? State the point, then post the link.

Liberal POV said...

Oatz, HD, and Guy

Oatz made the following statement:

"Two Fruits and Liberal POV still does not get that the better system is in America for Health Care."

My links show that simply is not the case unless you need treatment for specific aliments at a few of the world's best hospitals which are located in the United States.

Best specialized medicine and best health care systems are two different things.

Honest Debate said...

Lib,

Tell me why you think infant mortality or life expectancy have anything to do with the quality of health care or shut up. I don't need 100 links, just your reasoning.

guy fauleks said...

POV, your links are just links that mean nothing until you state what you are trying to prove with them. I consider them useless until you might for once be able to put something into context by putting a specific point with a specific link.

Liberal POV said...

HD

Both are world wide indcators of a counties ability to care for it's citizens.

Compare Angola with 180 infant death per 1000 to Singapore with 2.31 infant deaths per 1000.

The United States is 6.22 and Cuba is 5.82

Within the United States

The top ten are states with high proverty are all Southern Red stated except District of Colimbia and Delaware 9th at 8.6.
DC is a area of high proverty and has an infant mortality rate is 11.3
Factors within that are at this site. http://www.statemaster.com/state/LA-louisiana/hea-health

New York is 51st at 4 infant deaths per 1000 and also has the highest spending on Medicaid.
Louisiana is second on the loist with a rate of 10.3

Life expantancy:

Canada is 7th at 81,23 world wide and Japan is 3rd 82.3. $3,895 per person
Italy is 18th at 80.20
France is 8th at 80.98 $3,601 per person
Sweden 9th at 80.86 $3,323 per person
New Zealand is 17th at 80.36 $ 2,510 per person


The United states is 49th at 78.11 $7,290.00 per person annual

Mexico is 71st at 76.06 $823.00 per person

Cuba is 55th at 77.45

Angola 224th at 38.22


I

Honest Debate said...

"Both are world wide indcators of a counties ability to care for it's citizens." -LiberalPOV

There you go Guy. He said it so it must be true.

Liberal POV said...

Honest Debate???

Where's your debate?

What do you have to show for the $7,290.00 per person annually spent on health care in American leaving out 15% and getting us 49th place in life expantancy. Compare that with similar cultures of Canada with Universal Health Care at a cost of $3,895 per person per year with 100% of the citizens of Canada covered.

Honest Debate said...

Let me ask you a question Lib. What makes you think life expectancy or infant mortality have anything to do with the quality of health care in the US? Answer that, we'll talk.

Liberal POV said...

HD

What make you think a nation's Health care system has nothing to do with life expectancy or infant mortality?
The for profit health system in American is immoral as health care is a basic human right.
I know many of you that claim to be GOOD Christian people don't believe that.
Any stories about Christ healing the sick or dealing with the poor?

Just look at the huge difference between the United States and Canada spending half the money and ranking 7th in the world with life expantancy and Mexico to our south an extremly poor country with lots of third world conditions spending about 15% of the Us total on Health Care and ranking only 71st to our 49th out of 228 countries.

guy faulkes said...

POV, if you are not happy with our health care, what do you want to do to improve it? Note that this is a different issue than the government run provider system you support. After all, anyone can receive health care now.

It might interest you to know that there has been a breakthrough in infant death syndrome that indicates this condition is caused by lower levels of serotonin, a neurotransmitter which regulates the body's basic life-sustaining functions. This condition could either be genetic or influenced by smoking in the home. How is government run health care going to address this differently than privately run care?

How about tort reform, buying insurance across state lines, and other means of reducing the costs of heath care that would not result in the rationing of care and death panels? You seem to want to avoid those issues.

Liberal POV said...

Guy

The citizens in The United States are paying $7290. per person for health care but leaving 15% without coverage while the citizens of Canada cover all citizens
With a cost of $3,895 per person per year
Canada ranks 7th in world life expectancy.
Do you have facts or data to show a different picture?

Your comments or excuses about tort reform of buying across state lines just means the medical and insurance industries would invite more dishonesty into the industries.
Tort reform or buying across state line at best would at best save 2% of health care cost but all lots of problems.

Buying across state line would mean New Jersey with lacks insurance laws would be the home of all insurance companies and consumers would get screwed.

Tort reform would invite more Small Smiles Dental clinics

guy faulkes said...

Tort reform would not effect legitimate claims against medical malpractice. Buying across state lines would allow the free market to control insurance costs through competition. Service would get better for a smaller costs.

Health care is only one component of life expectancy. Diet, life style, crime rates, amounts of illegal aliens, and many other things affect life expectancy. For instance, the greatest inventions that effected life expectancy are generally considered to be the yoke or horse collar and the metal tipped plow. This allowed for the more effective cultivation of crops, more food being produced, and people being healthier and living longer. Neither have anything to do with health care.

Liberal POV said...

Guy

Compare the life styles of Canada with large native populations ant that of the United States.

Would Universal Health Care not also include preventive care and life style education?

Reader said...

We do have the best care in the world...period. Every country knows it, especially Canada. That's why their Ministers are coming here. Lib, you are contradicting yourself with some of your comments.

What it boils down to is taking care of oneself. Cancer strikes a lot of people, we cannot stop it. But we can prevent diabetes, obesity, cirrosis of the liver, heart attacks, strokes...you get the point. What we can't control is our own hands, from stuffing things in our mouths. When people start taking control of their health, I might change my mind. Until then, I will fight mandatory healthcare tooth and nail.

Anonymous said...

You plainly ask, "Why would the premier of Newfoundland, a man with access to the finest Canadian health care available, come to America for heart surgery?"

The answer is most likely quite simple...Because he can afford it.

I don't think I've heard anyone on Capitol Hill claim that either the quality of America's care or the talent of our physicians are lacking in any way. The issue is simply that administrative inneficiencies, suit-fearing redundancies and inhumane coverage decisions have rendered true quality care either unaffordable or inaccessable for a large portion of our citizens.

That has nothing to do with political opinion. That's just the way it is.

Liberal POV said...

Reader

"We do have the best care in the world...period. "

You don't get a pass either.

Your opinions don't become facts just because you typed them.

What data backs up your opinions?

See my first post February 2, 2010 8:58 AM

You have posted an apples and oranges thread.

Canada has a much better Health Care System then the USA. Lower infant mortality, longer life expectancy, fewer citizens file bankruptcy because of medical bills, all Canadians have access to medical care. Some how having access to medical care lowers crime.

Within the borders of the United States we have some of the best if not the best medical treatment for specific aliments in the world.

Honest Debate said...

Nonny,

You make a good point but Obama has said doctors are doing unnecessary operations to line their pockets and other such comments. I think that is saying quality is lacking. I'll try to dig up the quotes. I apologize for not being specific.

Certainly LiberalPOV is blaming poor quality for infant mortality rate, life expectancy, etc. I think he is anyway, I'm never quite sure.

Honest Debate said...

"The issue is simply that administrative inneficiencies, suit-fearing redundancies and inhumane coverage decisions have rendered true quality care either unaffordable or inaccessable for a large portion of our citizens." -Nonny

More government bureaucracy will make more "administrative inefficiencies". Tort reform (in the Republican plan) will help "suit-fearing redundancies". Democrats ignore tort reform. Portability (also in the Republican plan) will help accessibility.

Liberal POV said...

HD

"Certainly LiberalPOV is blaming poor quality for infant mortality rate, life expectancy, "

Lets get it right.

I'm blaming the for profit health care system for leaving 15% of our citizens out of health care, robbing Americans of life saving and bankrupting American families, increased crime aand not practicing enough preventive medicine.
The only issue I have with poor quality is medicaid clinics set up specificly to mine taxpayers for delivering services designed for profit not care and treatment to low income families. Similar things are also done for the high end wealthy Americans plastic surgery, and stay young for ever clinics but that is their freedom.

Liberal POV said...

HD

"More government bureaucracy will make more "administrative inefficiencies". Tort reform (in the Republican plan) will help "suit-fearing redundancies". Democrats ignore tort reform. Portability (also in the Republican plan) will help accessibility."

You want to pee on a house fire.

What can't you get?


The citizens in The United States are paying $7290. per person for health care but leaving 15% without coverage while the citizens of Canada cover all citizens
with a cost of $3,895 per person per year.
Canada ranks 7th in world life expectancy.
Do you have facts or data to show a different picture?

Do you really believe tort reform will cover that ground?

guy faulkes said...

POV, "Would Universal Health Care not also include preventive care and life style education?" I do not know. Our current system does.

I am not that familiar with the Canadian lifestyle. I do know they do not have to contend with the number of violently criminal illegal aliens that we do and that effects our life expectancy rate. I do not know how many fatal traffic accidents they have compared to us. Do you? I do not know their suicide rate. Do you? How do their smoking rate compare with ours? Do they have the same average diet as we do? Claiming health care is the reason for the difference in life expectancy is ridiculous. But then, what can we expect?

Anonymous said...

The USA does not have a healthcare "system." It has a patchwork of insurance companies, hospitals, and big pharma squeezing as much as possible out of all of us, especially including the taxes of all of which, which pay for the drug part of Medicare. The law prescribing the drug program specifically prohibits the govt bargaining for lower prices on drugs. Thanks to our bribable senate and house for that criminal extortion of the taxpayers.
Doctors are on their own and get squeezed from every direction--patients with too little insurance and insurance companies that refuse to pay for care if there is any insurance. "Preventive care" and "lifestyle education"? ROTFLMAO at anyone who thinks we have that. Prove it, I say.
If our regulators had not allowed hospitals to change from non-profit to big corporations which worship at the feet of the bottom line, we might have some better care than we do.
Anyone who thinks it's okay for some to have care and not others; for newborns to die because of lack of pre-natal care due to lack of insurance; for cancer patients to spend over a year trying to find help to pay for treatment because they have been dumped by their husbands who carried the insurance; or for the uninsured or too little insured to have to go to Dominican Republic, Costa Rica, or India to have major surgery because it's too expensive here, even with insurance--then those folks are drinking the neo-con koolaid and no reason will matter as long as they have their second-hand opinions from the people who tell them how and what to think.
Sell insurance across state lines? Oh, great. let them bilk us for even more when the state insurance commissioners have no control over their shenanigans.

Simple solutions suit simple people. Solving problems takes thought and not slogans.

oatz said...

You Lie!
Barack Obama told audiences time after time that, “If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor,” under Obamacare. He demonized those who challenged this argument.

This week we found out it was just words. Barack Obama finally admitted on Friday thay you will not be able to keep your doctor if Obamacare is passed.

Liberal POV said...

Anonymous

Well said!!

Honest Debate said...

Nonny,

Alright, let's go through this. I do agree with some of what you say but disagree with some of your premises. Your "patchwork" assertion rings true but unlike you I don't automatically think insurance companies or big pharma are evil by default. To the contrary, we'd be in a world of hurt without them. Big pharma is quite amazing.

One can argue the bureaucracy of the FDA is oppressive but it is what it is. If big pharma is required to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to bring a drug to market then it makes some sense to limit the ability of Canada to steal the market on American R&D with generics.

It's a little disingenuous to criticize the impact from Medicare part D on taxpayers if you support Obama's plan. "Obama's plan" is a term for the sake of this conversation as he has no specific plan, it's in flux. If you support it, fine but don't complain about taxes.

I'll be honest with you, the idea of government controlled "preventative care" or "Lifstyle education" scares the living crap out of me. Laudable as it is, the government telling me I can't skydive, ride a motorcycle, eat too many doritos or even smoke cigarettes is frightening. If our beloved tax dollars are footing the bill it must happen.

Nobody "thinks it's okay" for your nightmare scenarios to be. Nobody. There are options other than the "Obama plan".

Portability across State lines is a good idea if you don't assume insurance companies are evil. Competition is good for consumers. I will give you this, it would be very difficult to actually implement given the disparity of State laws and regulations. The Federal laws would have to impose their will on States. That is not what Republicans typically claim to want. I believe it's still a good idea and warranted.

Anonymous said...

Totally different nonny made the last post.

Honest Debate said...

Totally different nonny made the last post." -Anonymous

I'm confused, doesn't matter.

Most of the Nonnys are Liberals who have been discredited and are too ashamed to use the moniker we already know.

Not you Nonny, I was talking to the other Nonny.

Reader said...

Lib, sometimes you have to rely on common sense. I don't think there's data on that.

Liberal POV said...

Reader

"Lib, sometimes you have to rely on common sense. I don't think there's data on that."

Sometomes common sense is very uncommon.

Why is it not common sense to see Canada has a better National Heath Care System than the United States which has No National Health Care System except Medicare for senoir which does work well.

guy faulkes said...

For once POV is partially correct. Canada has socialized medicine. Thankfully we do not. Canadians come here to get the health care that is denied them by their rationed method of dispensing care or to get better care.

Liberal POV said...

Guy

"I am not that familiar with the Canadian lifestyle"

"Do they have the same average diet as we do? Claiming health care is the reason for the difference in life expectancy is ridiculous. But then, what can we expect?"

Guy believes if a nation plans for all citizens to have access to health care then it becomes a nation with socialized medicine.

Guy's opinion is a nation that fails to provide a plan for all of its citizens to have access to health care is somehow a better system.

Common sense would tell me Guy is wrong.

If the Canadian Health Care Plan is Socialized Medicine then I'm for socialized medicine, it works.

guy faulkes said...

Might I suggest you use the Canadian system if that is your preference? Their citizens flee their system to come here, surely they would not object to providing care for you in order to make up for them.

Liberal POV said...

Guy

"Their citizens flee their system to come here, surely they would not object to providing care for you in order to make up for them."

Another myth:

Some do come to the United States for specialized treatment of cancer or heart disease in rare cases.

The United States does have some of the world's best Hospitals as I said in the first post. That is not the same as having the best health care system.
The United States Health Care System is far from being the best in the world.

Guy and others here seem content buying and spreading the lie.

Liberal POV said...

Guy

You're the one claiming to be a conservative.

Why would you want to pay nearly twice as much cover fewer citizens and have more infants die and the average citizen not live as long?

Guy's logic?

guy fauleks said...

Most come to the United States for health care from Canada because due to the rationing of care in Canada, they would have to put up with pain for a long period of time or possibly die before they could receive care.

POV seems to be content with his Kool Aid. If he really thought health care in Canada was superior, he would go there to get it.

Liberal POV said...

Guy

"Canada because due to the rationing of care in Canada, they would have to put up with pain for a long period of time or possibly die before they could receive care. "

You post another myth:

Knee replacement or hip replacement may require a few weeks to schule in Canada but some of that takes place here.

Below are the median wait time in British Columbia.

Would covering every person in America at half the cost and not have families even with health insurance go bankrupt from medical bills be worth this wait?

Medical emergencies in Canada have no wait time.

http://canadaonline.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&zTi=1&sdn=canadaonline&cdn=newsissues&tm=41&f=10&tt=14&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.healthservices.gov.bc.ca/waitlist/

guy faulkes said...

POV, I have seen numerous interviews of people from Canada that came to this country because of the rationing of health care in Canada. To deny it is dishonest and disingenuous.

No, the government does not have the right to tell me I have to wait for treatment, what doctor I see, or which hospital I choose to provide my health care. By the way, none of the socialist plans you have endorsed covered every person in America. They did not even come close to covering every person in the United States. They were just socialist power grabs that had nothing to do with the quality of health care. Not only would health care suffer, it would become more expensive under these plans.

Liberal POV said...

Guy

"No, the government does not have the right to tell me I have to wait for treatment, what doctor I see, or which hospital I choose to provide my health care."

Are you Okay with your for profit insurance plan doing those things?

You need to do some educating of yourself on American health insurance.

Watch Sicko for started then thll me what Moore has wrong.

guy faulkes said...

POV, I have been hospitalized three time for major injuries. My for profit insurance did not "tell me I have to wait for treatment, what doctor I see, or which hospital I choose to provide my health care" as the government would have done. Even Obama now admits this. It paid the bills.

Thank you for making my point.

guy faulkes said...

POV, I forgot to add that there is no reason for me to watch "Sicko". If there were an argument in favor of abortion, it would be the child might be another Micheal Moore. He is even more of an idiot than you. The funny thing is you drink his Kool Aid and let him tell you what to think.