This blog,originally founded by Blogger, who is listed in Marquis Who's Who and is a recipient of the Albert Nelson Marquis Lifetime Achievement Award. He holds a theological degree and a doctorate in Counseling Psychology. Taught Psychology for 32 years and is now Professor Emeritus. Is a board-certified psychologist and was awarded the Lifetime Achievement Award in his profession. Ministered as a chaplain, and pastored Baptist and Episcopal churches. Publications cover the integration of psychology and theology. Served in the Army, the Merchant Marines and the Peace Corps.

Tuesday, April 20, 2010

Revisiting Compassionate Conservatism

A conversation with an Anonymous commenter on the "Chills" thread got me to thinking the subject deserved its own thread.

The theory posited was: "I think it's the escape from poverty by certain groups of poor citizens that bothers many lower-middle-class conservatives. They tend to enjoy having an under class to look down upon and they're conned into thinking that its elimination will come about at their expense. Some are just jealous and resentful of anyone who accepts a hand up to better themselves as opposed to pridefully refusing assistance and remaining in squaller."

Commenter LiberalPOV added: "We do have a segment of [sic]America wealthiest who made that wealth not producing anything but [sic]praying on the poorest among us."

Hmmmmmm.

Why do they, and many others, think elitism and greed are purposely holding down the poor? I think they view policies more emotionally than factually. Let's discuss it.

The fundamental premise I base my position on is that wealth is a choice. Anyone, no matter the conditions they come from, can educate themselves. Racism is an excuse, not a reason, not to achieve. Poverty does not equal stupidity. Passion and discipline lead to success and are equally available to all. That may be as far as the debate gets. If agreement cannot be reached there then the rest of the discussion is futile. And please, let's not get sidetracked with those that are mentally or physically impaired. Most aren't.

It is a fact that tax cuts cause more revenue and tax increases bring less. See the Laffer Curve. It is emotion that says taxing the wealthy is a fairness issue or that we need to "spread the wealth around" (Obama's words to Joe the Plumber). That line of thinking leads some to believe that opposition means oppression. The opposite is true.

Another timely example is the extension of unemployment benefits. My view is it is more compassionate to end them than to extend them. I have a neighbor that has been collecting for over a year because he lost his job. He told me he could get a job for $8.50/hour but makes out just as well by collecting unemployment. For him to receive a check money has to first be forcibly taken from someone who has earned it. That's not compassionate. Now his benefits are running out and he says he'll take one of those jobs. Conversely, if he had done that a year ago he could have been a model employee (a choice) and made himself indispensable thereby warranting more money. His resume would have been enhanced to aid in getting a better job. The gained knowledge and experience could have inspired a passion to start his own business. Extending unemployment benefits is what has held him down.

Bill Clinton dramatically reformed welfare. Sure he had little choice after 1994 and he was being politically savvy but I still think it took some courage. I give him credit for that. Three million people lost their welfare. It was good for them in the long run. It was emotionally devastating for those who think keeping people chained to poverty is good. It is intellectually dishonest to ignore that people have a choice between getting a job or keeping their welfare and that some are happy to settle for lees if they don't have to work for a living.

70 comments:

Anonymous said...

HD: The tale of your neighbor makes me curious.....Have you ever had the opportunity to engage the guy in serious conversation?

Are you familiar with his political or religious leanings? Have you noticed any specific bumper stickers or yard signs in the past?

I'm just wondering if you KNOW the guy to be a horribly lazy and godless liberal slacker or if he might possibly be a disgruntled and jaded conservative who just decided to plop down on the couch for a year.

Either way, you're certainly correct in stating that opportunity for socio-economic advancement, especially through free public education and self-training, does technically exist for all. But just as freedom from oppression exists for all of us, it might be a bit difficult to convince a twenty-year battered wife of that fact.

guy faulkes said...

The idea that lower middle class people begrudge the poor escaping poverty is ridiculous. For one thing, the lower middle class is comprised of all races and religions. To indicate we wish to look down on certain groups is asinine. There is no group that is not part of us. While this statement is probably accurate for some small percentage of people, it does not reflect the views of the majority.

For another, if people leave poverty, then we do not have to pay for them through entitlement programs.

Once again, Liberproverbs18:2 has made a statement with nothing to back it up. He gives us not example of how this segment of America's wealthiest do not produce anything, but only prey on the poor. More mouse flatulence in a hurricane.

However, he is correct that the poor are being held down, but it is by the new slavery caused by the entitlement programs. When the liberals decided to pay people not to work in order to gain a voting block, they became the poster child of those that prey on the poor. Their rational was that as long as they could keep people poor, uneducated, and non-productive, they could secure their votes forever by continuing to provide entitlements for those that are fully capable of providing for themselves. All it takes is for the liberals to continue to offer more bread and circuses.

HD's comment about his friend milking all he could out of unemployment benefits is a case in point. All that is different is that HD's friend will go back to work when the benefits end. The liberal entitlement program insures people never work if they keep voting for liberals. I know this to be a fact as I have relatives that have been entrapped in this slavery for generations.

Sarkazein said...

H.D.- I'll keep thinking about it, but as of yet, I only see mindless drivel in the "posted theory". It is one of the more vacuous misconceptions I've read, but that's about it really.

Honest Debate said...

Nonny,

I've talked to my neighbor a lot but I wouldn't really consider him more than an acquaintance. He owns the vacant lot next to his house and I've bushhogged it a time or two for him and plowed his garden as well with my tractor. It's a neighborly thing. I'll do anything a neighbor asks me to if I can. Don't tell them that though.

I have zip, zero, nada idea about his political beliefs or his religious beliefs. I could not care less. I also don't think he is lazy but he could be, you'd have to ask his wife. He's simply made a calculated decision. I pass no judgment. I don't think I would make the same decision but I really can't say for sure.

One point I may have not made very clear, I don't blame the victims so much as I do the victimizers.

Why do you ask? Your questions seem odd and irrelevant to me. Am I missing something?

You comment about the battered wife is subterfuge. She would be the victim of a crime. That's a different discussion.

Anonymous said...

True that she'd be the victim of a crime if physically battered, but what if she'd been emotionally abused for those years? No crime, no foul?

There comes a point in the life of a down-trodden individual when they simply give up because they see no way to improve matters. Hell, watch twenty minutes of "Precious," or just one episode of "The Wire."

We can certainly have a chicken-and-the-egg discussion regarding opinions over whether or not entitlements are a bigger or more instrumental institution of enslavement then is the societal treatment of minorities and the impoverished. But it would be pure head-in-the-sandism to suggest for a second that the mere existance of opportunity is a magic pill for our underclass.

Honest Debate said...

Nonny, c'mon man. Why are you clouding the issue? BTW, I'm not so sure that emotional abuse isn't a crime. It's certainly grounds for divorce...and alimony. Is America full of the down-troddin? No. 47% pay no taxes. Is half the country poor and down-troddin? A quarter? An eighth? Give me a number.

"There comes a point in the life of a down-trodden individual when they simply give up because they see no way to improve matters."

That does not mean there is no way to improve matters. Does it? What do you want to do about it anyway? Send her a check? I don't get it. That is unless you are just trying to paint me as discompassionate, I suspect that's it. Alright, alright for the sake of this argument assume I am. What next for the poor woman? As I said, it's subterfuge on your part.

I've never seen "The Wire". I didn't see the first 20 minutes of "Precious". How does it end?

"But it would be pure head-in-the-sandism to suggest for a second that the mere existance of opportunity is a magic pill for our underclass."

Who said anything about a magic pill? We can legislate equal opportunity but not equal outcome. There is only one thing in this world that is easy, complaining.

One more thing. Don't sell "the mere existence of opportunity" short. It was a hard fought battle which countless patriots died for.

Anonymous said...

You win, HD. We don't need assistance programs. We just need to tell all the poor and the generationally marginalized minorities among us that they need to save for a pair of bootstraps to pull themselves up by. Afterall, your neighbor's going to grab a job as soon as his unemployment benefits run out, so that means everyone else would do the same if we cut off government assistance of all types.

Sorry for sullying your theoretical table with a stain of reality from parts beyond Watauga County.

Honest Debate said...

See Nonny, I told you I was discompassionate.

Sarkazein said...

Anonymous writes"...see no way to improve matters. Hell, watch twenty minutes of "Precious," or just one episode of "The Wire."


OK, political realities based on fictional TV shows. Just watch 20 minutes of the fiction, and you too can be an enlightened liberal.

Chicken and egg discussion: Did society worsen with LBJ's Great Society, or has it gotten better? Are their fewer or more "single moms" and fatherless homes. Are there more minorities in prison or less?
The Great Society came first, then the decline of society.

Honest Debate said...

Sark,

My neighbor's story wasn't fiction but Nonny's interpretation of it was. I asked him how the movie "Precious" ended. He didn't answer that or any other question I asked even though I believe I answered every single one of his. Typical. I looked it up and the main character pulled herself up by the "bootstraps" and was working on her GED. I guess that's why he referred to only the first 20 minutes. He can't even get it right with fiction.

I was amazed to find out "We don't need assistance programs". That's pretty harsh. Those libs are mean. I learned a Latin phrase the other day, reductio ad absurdum. I didn't quite understand it but I do now.

Sarkazein said...

"reductio ad absurdum" is a perfect description. It often comes with liberal comments. I didn't have a phrase for it before, so thanks. If a conservative says: " Protect my right to bare arms" a liberal comes back with: "So everybody should have their own nuclear bomb". OR a Conservative writes:"We are spending and taxing way too much" and the liberal answers: "So we should cut spending 100% and starve our military to death".
Perfect phrase, thanks!

Anonymous said...

Absurd is a couple thousand grasping-to-guns-and-religioners trying to convince the rest of the sane world that they've banded together for anything more than self-serving greed and rationalized bigotry.

And absurd is also any rational, non-extremist liberal expecting to get two comments in a row out of most snarkists here before the back-slapping and hurumph-hurumphing begins. I swear, sometimes you guys are on a par with the bone pounders in 2001 A Space Odyssey.

Do you ever post anywhere where your comments are questioned or challenged? Or do you just hang out in this and similar mono-thought locker rooms? If you do ever venture out of the cave, I'd love to be pointed to a link to see both your treatment and your reactions.

Sarkazein said...

Anonymous wrote-"you guys are on a par with the bone pounders in 2001 A Space Odyssey."

Danged, more fictional TV. Flip on The news every now and then, you might develop a mind-set similar to reality. Did you write in Josiah Bartlett in the last elections?

Reader said...

HD and Sark, I've heard every excuse there is not to work. One told me that his assistance would be lowered if he got a job, so why not just stay at home? I'm in a business where I hear a lot of excuses. Don't get me wrong, there are some people who do need help, but not as many as the liberals want you to think.

Anon, your comment about a battered woman is an insult.

Here is a link guys you might enjoy, I did.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/political_commentary/commentary_by_michael_barone/tea_partiers_fight_obama_s_culture_of_dependence

Liberal POV said...

Tea Party Mob

"Don't get me wrong, there are some people who do need help, but not as many as the liberals want you to think. "

Here's the difference we have 10-15% of Americans out of work or who have health or familie issue that can't work. We have 30% of Americans who work but don't make a living wage to support their families.

We have you conservatives who want to blame these people for being poor.

I think the biggest difference between liberals and conservative is liberals have empathy and can say but for the grace of God their go I.
What do conservitives say? Maybe conservative are just smart enough to be born on the right side of the border of to families with both parents, in good economic times, no illiness or the families that don't live in depressed areas like Detroit, Cario IL.

Tell me about all that religion and family values you conservatives claim. Yea right, is it call a dollar?

Honest Debate said...

Nonny,

I really hope you respond to this.

I already confessed to getting confused with the "Nonny's". You must not be the one who wrote: "By the way, I don't want to get all huggy-kissy about this, but THIS is the exact type of exchange I enjoy and appreciate. We're actually talking about real-world situations without getting pissy or personal." I conclude that because you sure are getting pissy and personal.

I don't see how you can say Sark and I are "back-slapping and hurumph-hurumphing", I really don't. That does go on but rarely. One particular commenter likes to do it but even that one has not harumphed lately. I don't do it and I can't remember Sark doing it. Speaking for myself, I want very much to engage in honest debate. I'd rather convince than bully. That's just me, to each his own.

Do you deny the reductio ad absurdum charge? That's what you did. No one suggested ending all assistance.

You asked: "Do you ever post anywhere where your comments are questioned or challenged?"

I blog on an NPR website and am never challenged on my points but I am called every name in the book while they avoid the issue at hand. There was the aforementioned Nonny who did challenge some of my assertions and I enjoyed it. There was another Nonny that inspired this thread, I thought for a while it was you but it must not have been. That Nonny would have known he/she challenged my claims and engaged me in honest debate.

What did you challenge? My assertion that wealth is a choice? Or my assertion that tax cuts bring more revenue? Did you challenge my assertion that Bill Clinton removed 3 million people from the welfare rolls? That it was good for them in the long run? Or my assertion that my neighbor made a calculated decision not to work? Am I wrong about my assertion that it is intellectually dishonest to ignore that people have a choice between getting a job or keeping their welfare and that some are happy to settle for lees if they don't have to work for a living?

If you did then I missed it. When one doesn't say the equivalent of "I disagree with you because fill in the blank or "You're wrong about that, here's why" and gets pissy in lieu of it, that tells me they have surrendered the argument. Am I wrong?

Sarkazein said...

POV- as Jesus preached, make Pontius Pilate and the Roman government supply the fish and the bread.
Do unto others as you would have the government do unto you. Start a government foot washing agency and are these crosses union made?
I am NOT my brothers keeper, the government is.
(Obama abides by this one)

POV-"Tell me about all that religion and family values you conservatives claim"

Honest Debate said...

Sark,

Here's where I learned the phrase.

You wrote, If a conservative says: "Protect my right to bare arms" a liberal comes back with: "So everybody should have their own nuclear bomb".

It's absolutely freaky how you nailed that one.

Honest Debate said...

Lib you wrote: "I think the biggest difference between liberals and conservative is liberals have empathy and can say but for the grace of God their go I.
What do conservitives say?"

Conservatives say let's fix the problem as opposed to empathizing with it.

Anonymous said...

"Sark...It's absolutely freaky how you nailed that one."

Hurumph, hurumph....Whack, whack, whack.

Honest Debate said...

Reader,

As an employer you live in the real world. Great article!

Sarkazein said...

Thank you Anonymous, Honest Debate said the same thing.

Honest Debate said...

Nonny,

I must have misunderstood your meaning. I thought you meant we were celebrating over defeating your arguments. I see now you were talking about remarks more along the lines of the other Nonny's huggy kissy one. So, I stand corrected. However, I will continue to be nice when I can. Sorry if that offends you.

Did you see the link for Sark? His example was almost verbatim to the link. That's freaky.

Once again it seems like you are reacting emotionally while ignoring the facts on the ground.

Honest Debate said...

Sark,

I'd tell you how funny I thought that last post was but I don't want to offend Nonny. Not the huggy kissy Nonny or the other Nonny, the pissy, personal attacking Nonny.

Liberal POV said...

HD

"Conservatives say let's fix the problem as opposed to empathizing with it."

We could both get on thesame page if that were true.

Conservative are too busy with Guns, God, Gays and Tax cuts to fix anything.

What would your plan be to end the wars, educate the children, provide affordalble health care, cut taxes , balance the budget and build a more energy efficent infustructure and a society with less crime and drug use?

Sarkazein said...

POV asks-"What would your plan be to end the wars, educate the children, provide affordalble health care, cut taxes , balance the budget and build a more energy efficent infustructure and a society with less crime and drug use?"

Sarkazein said...

Pardon me, I meant to click edit.

POV- I would watch all the fictional TV shows and learn how it is supposed to be.

Sarkazein said...

H.D- I finally got on the video link of Chris Matthews.

That is a perfect example. I thought the guest did a great job answering Chris's reductio ad absurdum.


reductio ad absurdumism

Liberal POV said...

Sark

"POV- I would watch all the fictional TV shows and learn how it is supposed to be."

Add " Treme" to your list, your world view to be fair and balanced needs more tha just Fox news fiction.

Sarkazein said...

Treme. That is real fiction. Most of the New Orleaners were gone after Katrina, and most of the illegal aliens left Texas and went to work in NO. Most New Orleaners came here and waited for their FEMA checks and cruised the Houston Galleria Mall while driving up the murder rate and most of the illegals cleaned-up NO.
I didn't have to see it on FOX, I saw IT.

Honest Debate said...

LiberalPOV you wrote: "Conservative are too busy with Guns, God, Gays and Tax cuts to fix anything."

There's a blog you ought to check out. It's called "A Watauga Conservative". Take the emotion out of it and consider the facts. Refute them if you can, I'm open. We're talking about fixes, right?

On Guns

On Gays
More on Gays

On Tax cuts

In regards to God, I'd rather not go there. That's a private matter that I don't often discuss. If someone finds comfort in their beliefs or non-beliefs then I respect that because, beyond faith, no one knows with certainty. I am not cynical enough to conclude that Republicans believe in God and Democrats don't. Please don't give me evidence to believe otherwise.

Johnny Rico said...

What's wrong with guns, god, and personnal responsibility? Oh, I forgot, things like that frighten liberal socialists as they might have to get out and work.

Liberal POV said...

HD


"Conservatives say let's fix the problem as opposed to empathizing with it."

Then you do have ideas, plans and answers to the following?


What would your plan be to end the wars, educate the children, provide living wage jobs, provide affordable health care, cut taxes , balance the budget and build a more energy efficient infrastructure, Reform banking and Wall Street, Protect our food supply and a society with less crime and drug use?

guy faulkes said...

Liberalproverbs18:2, your talking points have been answered many times. You still refuse to answer any questions put to you. Your opinion is meaningless until you do so. Please continue to chant La La La La La as it gives us something to laugh at.

There comes a point in the life of a down-trodden individual when they simply give up because they see no way to improve matters." = Anonymous

This point usually comes because people fully capable of working feel they can live just as well as they could by working simply by voting for liberal entitlement programs. They have been robbed of their pride, their dignity, their self respect, and their ambition. This is why the new slavery of the left is not only wrong, it is criminal and a sin. As HD said about his friend and as I know about my family, they would be better off if they were forced to get a job. I beleive this is called "Tough Love".

Honest Debate said...

Guy,

Nonny's breaker flipped so rational debate has gone out the window. I suppose he tried and I , for a time, thought he was different than most libs. Nope, in the end it's the same playbook. Dismiss, discredit, demonize and distort. When all of that is met with rational rebuttal the breaker flips and they get pissy. You are absolutely right but Nonny and LiberalPOV will not address and have not addressed the entitlement mindset. Honest debate is not possible. Sad.

guy faulkes said...

HD, I have to wonder if the same person made the posts. The first person used a chain of logic and backed it up. While I did not agree with him, I thought he did an excellent job of presenting his case. It was by far the best argument that I have ever read that was presented by a liberal. Then all at once not only did his methodology change, so did his vocabulary and his syntax. I guess this person really is anonymous.

Passion is a part of debate. If he is offended by the reposes he received from conservatives, then he should read how we respond to each other when we disagree. The difference is that we put on our big boy (or girl) britches and enjoy the debate.

Polite passion plus logic plus supporting documentation equals a good debate and a learning experience. Name calling along with other personal attacks and mouthing talking points are a waste of time and are boring.

Honest Debate said...

I had the same observation Guy. I'm not sure if I can do it but I'm thinking of removing the "Anonymous" posting option. One can use any name they choose, if it's not their own then they are anonymous anyway. Even if they are known by a moniker and don't want to associated with a comment they can change their name. It may help us to understand who we are debating with.

Also of note is the fact that everyone has a certain style. You for example rarely use contractions. We also get to know each others positions and passions. I think I could recognize you no matter the moniker. You'd probably recognize me too.

Liberal POV said...

HD , Guy and GOP


"You are absolutely right but Nonny and LiberalPOV will not address and have not addressed the entitlement mindset. "

What part of most of America's poor work but don't make a living wage do you not understand?

Most without health insurance are working poor.

How is the capitalist system working for local chicken farmers who must stay indebt to keep a contract with Tyson have no benefits and must work 7 days a week for low income?

Liberal POV said...

Guy

"Liberalproverbs18:2, your talking points have been answered many times."


If that were true you could just copy and paste but you know you have no answers but more gun rights, more tax cuts for the rich ( to increase the deficit ), Fewer regulations to make food supply even less safe and our saving less secure.

Sarkazein said...

Did you notice a similarity with Shyster and this Anonymous when H.D/Blogger complimented another commenter?

Honest Debate said...

Lib, for a second there I thought you might address the entitlement mindset on your 9:46 AM post. No dice, my claim remains.

On your 9:52 post, and this is great, all you have to do is scroll up 8 comments to my April 21, 2010 9:38 PM comment. No need to cut and paste. Did you miss it or ignore it? Guy is right.

Liberal POV said...

HD

The reality is the current economic system does not work for close to a majority of Americans 47% don't make enough money to pay federal taxes.

Reforms are necessary to save that system or it will be voted out in the future.

Americans must have jobs paying a living wage with benefits.

Honest Debate said...

"47% don't make enough money to pay federal taxes." -LiberalPOV

You don't have to file if you are single, under 65 and made less than $9,350.
See chart on page 8

Does that describe nearly half of the country?

Sarkazein said...

POV wrote-"The reality is the current economic system does not work for close to a majority of Americans 47% don't make enough money to pay federal taxes."


UNBELIEVABLE! The Left works their political butts off to make sure alot of people don't have to pay taxes, even sends them "earned income tax credits" rigs the system to tax bigger earners a bigger percentage, THEN complains the economic system is not working by saying 47% don't make enough to pay taxes.

THAT has to be in the TOP TWO MOST RIDICULOUS COMMENTS of the MONTH.

Sarkazein said...

The above Falls in lock-step with Sol Alinsky's(sp) orders to Obama. Over-load the system until it breaks down.

Reader said...

I'm just shaking my head again at Lib's comments. He has no clue about running a business, nor does anyone in the administration. That's why there are no jobs...do you understand?

Johnny Rico said...

Liberal Socialist Sheep POV said:

"What would your plan be to end the wars, educate the children, provide living wage jobs, provide affordable health care, cut taxes , balance the budget and build a more energy efficient infrastructure, Reform banking and Wall Street, Protect our food supply and a society with less crime and drug use?"

What would be yours? Oh, I know, raise taxes, abolish freedom, suck off the nanny state teat, and the fairness doctrine. How could I forget.

Your ole pal

Johnny Rico

PS I bet your parents are proud that their child grew up to be a "needy" member of society who contributes nothing and expects other people's hard earned money to pay their way?

LOL

Grady

Johnny Rico said...

Liberal Socialist Sheep POV said:

Funny thing. Retirees who live on social security as the sole means of income are federally taxed. You are about as dumb as your parents who unfortunately procreated through accident. LOL!!!

Your ole pal

Johnny Rico


sarah

Liberal POV said...

HD

"Does that describe nearly half of the country?"

I didn't say 47% didn't have to file or that 47% didn't have to pay Social Security or medicare I said 47 % don't make enough money to pay Federal Income tax.

We need better paying jobs and a tax structure to encourage better pay for average workers and less for the top management. Top management getting 400 to 500 times lowest paid empolyee is wrong.

Liberal POV said...

Tea Party Mob

I didn't see anyone come forward with details just general complaining of Obama and the Clintons.

"What would The Tea Party plan be to end the wars, educate the children, provide living wage jobs, provide affordable health care, cut taxes , balance the budget and build a more energy efficient infrastructure, Reform banking and Wall Street, Protect our food supply, immigration, energy reduction, global climate change, Right wing or left wing home grown terrorist and a society with less crime and drug use ?"

I just hope Michelle can and will run when Obama's eight years are up.

Sarkazein said...

Trample the weak, hurdle the dead

Liberal POV said...

Sark

I like your post on Ted, I agree with Ted this is part of the problem of America's weak or sick society.

How can we agree on this and nothing else?

guy faulkes said...

Actually, Liberalproverbs18:2, I would be willing to bet that Sark is in complete agreement with Uncle Ted as am I.

Even in the 60's the Nuge was a pro-American, anti-drug rock star. If you knew this, I bet it you hated him for his political views. (If you were really alive back then)

Johnny Rico said...

Liberal Socialist sheep POV,

Again, I say there are retirees who live here in Watauga County on social security as the sole means and they pay federal income tax. What part of this do you not understand? So what you say about 47% of citizens not paying Federal Income tax is yet another ignorant lie by the left.

Too bad your parents made the mistake!! LOL!!!!

Your ole pal

Johnny Rico

Betsy

Liberal POV said...

Johnny

"So what you say about 47% of citizens not paying Federal Income tax is yet another ignorant lie by the left."

What percent do you think it is?

Liberal POV said...

Johnny

""So what you say about 47% of citizens not paying Federal Income tax is yet another ignorant lie by the left."


I'm saying 47% of American don't make enough income the tax this is what I found. Working Americans income is falling while the rich continue to get richer.


http://www.pennlive.com/editorials/index.ssf/2010/04/shrinking_income_taxes_arent_e.html
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/l/e/let_freedom_ring/2010/04/its-a-lie-half-of-americans-do.php?ref=reccafe

http://www.progress.org/2010/april15.htm

Honest Debate said...

LiberalPOV you wrote: "I'm saying 47% of American don't make enough income the tax this is what I found."

The first of your links did not work. This is the first two sentences of the second link.

"About 47 percent of US taxpayers will pay no federal income taxes at all for 2009. Either their incomes were too low, or they qualified for enough credits, deductions and exemptions to eliminate their liability."

Your claim is the entire 47% don't make enough income completely ignoring the other half of the equation. I see only three options: 1) You did not read past the first sentence, 2) You don't understand your own link or 3) You are being dishonest. Please tell me if there is another.

I've already given you the chart of income limits and there is no way that half the country is that poor. We aren't Somalia.

What kind of taxpayers have enough enough credits, deductions and exemptions to eliminate their liability? For one General Electric. They made only 10.8 billion in profits last year. Is that what you call poor?

Finally, don't come at me with them being a corporation, they are "US taxpayers" just like your link described.

One more "finally": This was a complete waste of my time because you do not care about the truth.

guy faulkes said...

HD, it is good that Liberalproverbs18:2 does not care about the truth, because I truly believe that he does not have the mental capacity to understand it. He is perfect fodder for those that would control him as he is one of those people that can be fooled all of the time.. He is to be pitied.

Liberal POV said...

HD

What would the Tea Party, Rush or you suggest to increase the number of Americans making a living wage?

What would you do the reform our economic system so more Americans benefit from this system?

Instead of watching the middle class shrink how would you reverse this trend?

The liberal believe is union labor made up a large segment of the middle class.

With more Americans making a living wage the federal defict decreases.

Honest Debate said...

Guy,

I agree. He is always asking who our leader is. That's telling because of the importance he gives it. A follower cannot fathom the concept of there being no leader.

Honest Debate said...

Lib,

One more "finally": This was a complete waste of my time because you do not care about the truth.

April 22, 2010 10:41 PM

Liberal POV said...

HD

Hecklers and mobs don't have plans or ideas.

Liberal POV said...

HD and Tea Party Mob

You don't like Obama's plans and ideas but hve none of your own.

Honest Debate said...

"Hecklers and mobs don't have plans or ideas." -LiberalPOV

No, but we do.

"You don't like Obama's plans and ideas but hve none of your own."

We have truth.

Do you have any defense at all for not responding to the 47% lie you told? Why are you heckling in lieu of it?

Liberal POV said...

HD


I think the report on the 47% is refering to earned income. It's refering to people that work for wages.

All of these people do pay gasoline tax, social security and Medicare but the income of Americans is falling and each year fewer American make enough wage income to pay into the income tax system.
Do you deny that fact?

Where do we agree? Do we have a problem with to few living wage jobs in America? Do we have a problem with declining wages and benefits?

Honest Debate said...

"I think the report on the 47% is refering to earned income." -Lib

Where did you that pull from?

Nevermind, I don't want to know.

Reader said...

Good video Sark. You can tell a man who works hard, by his hands. I use my husband's hands as sandpaper...saves me a boo koo of money. I love a hardworking man.

guy faulkes said...

All right, Liberalproverbs18:2, I will answer your talking points yet again, Get someone to explain the answers to you this time.

What would the Tea Party, Rush or you suggest to increase the number of Americans making a living wage?

What would you do the reform our economic system so more Americans benefit from this system?

Instead of watching the middle class shrink how would you reverse this trend?

The liberal believe is union labor made up a large segment of the middle class.

With more Americans making a living wage the federal defict decreases.

Repeal the over regulation that kills the free market. Do away with out of control government agencies. Pass tax cuts and incentives that will stimulate the economy and provide jobs. Encourage right to work legislation in all states to lessen the power of the unions that have forced so many jobs out of the country. Do away with entitlement programs for those fully able to work. Deport illegal aliens to retrieve the jobs they have stolen and eliminate the huge economic burden they cause this country. (This would have the additional benefit of lowering crime.)

All of these things would increase jobs, lessen the price of good and services while causing wages to go up due to increased productivity, increase the size of the middle class and the upper class, lessen the size of the lower class, lessen the deficit due to less government interference and spending, lessen the deficit due to the government bringing in more tax money, and encourage legal immigration.

Now that I have once again answered the same lame post, answer the gun questions from which you are running. You made statements. Explain them up.

Liberal POV said...

Guy and Tea Party mob


"Repeal the over regulation that kills the free market."


Like mining safety , food safety Banking and wall street?

"Do away without of control government agencies."

FDA, FAA, ATF, FBI, EPA ?

"Pass tax cuts and incentives that will stimulate the economy and provide jobs"

Taxes are at an all time low, what happens to the deficit? It that doesn't work do you cut taxes more?
Do you cut meals for soldiers and pay? Social Security?

" Encourage right to work legislation in all states to lessen the power of the unions that have forced so many jobs out of the country."

Union labor use to make up most of the middle class as unions decline so do over all wages and benefits and American standard of living. One way to bust unions is to ship jobs overseas, why has no conservative though of that or have they?

"Do away with entitlement programs for those fully able to work"

What happens if there are no jobs? This will also reduce wages as citizens will have to work for any wage.
By entitlements do you mean Social Security, Military pensions, Government pensions,and Medicare?

"Deport illegal aliens to retrieve the jobs they have stolen and eliminate the huge economic burden they cause this country. (This would have the additional benefit of lowering crime.)"

Many undocumented American residents came here as children and have never been back to home country sense. Many have married American citizens and have children who are American citizens.

The conservatives say the hell with family values we gonna split your family and deport your ass.


The undocumented workers are just scapegoats to deeper problems, how you gong get those Chinese to quit making products Americans use to make?
What myths you believe!

Johnny Rico said...

Liberal Socialist Sheep POV:

Again, I say there are retirees who live here in Watauga County on social security as the sole means and they pay federal income tax. What part of this do you not understand? So what you say about 47% of citizens not paying Federal Income tax is yet another ignorant lie by the left.

Too bad your parents made the mistake!! LOL!!!!

Your ole pal

Johnny Rico