This blog,originally founded by Blogger, who is listed in Marquis Who's Who and is a recipient of the Albert Nelson Marquis Lifetime Achievement Award. He holds a theological degree and a doctorate in Counseling Psychology. Taught Psychology for 32 years and is now Professor Emeritus. Is a board-certified psychologist and was awarded the Lifetime Achievement Award in his profession. Ministered as a chaplain, and pastored Baptist and Episcopal churches. Publications cover the integration of psychology and theology. Served in the Army, the Merchant Marines and the Peace Corps.

Thursday, May 6, 2010

Newt Gingrich Proposal on Immigration

Liberal POV is always asking for conservative proposals on Immigration. Here is Newt Gingrich's.

31 comments:

Liberal POV said...

HD

This is far more reasoned than what's been posted here by local conservatives.

Something I strongly disagree with and would like to see ended is the seasonal worker visa.

I do see Newt is not calling for mass deportation or large fines and is looking for a path to citizenship for those that have grown up here or been here for years and in some cases decades.

Background checks on all who are here before receiving legal status or citizenship should happen and those with serious criminal records or long term welfare should not become citizens in most cases. Person that grew up in a home of undocumented workers who had a major disability ( birth defect , blind, hearing impaired )may need to be considered for citizenship.

Teaching English is not as important as teaching about living in America, need for insurance, DWIs, Drug laws, credit, banking and other financial dealing.

Lots to think about but the deport them ALL now and calling all criminals blocks the debate and progress in solving the immigration problem with a just and lasting solution.

I don't want to give the banks this security concession haven't we given the banks enough?

Giving this to Visa and Master card would just be more corporate socialism and corporate welfare.

Honest Debate said...

Newt is the biggest thinker we have. He is a big believer in doing the things that there is big support for and choosing the battles carefully. Even LiberalPOV could be convinced as evidenced by his thoughtful post. I can't believe I wrote that but credit where credit is due. I disagree with Lib about the credit card companies. I think it's brilliant. They have the tools and private enterprise will always out preform government.

The key to any immigration reform is closing the boarders first. First. If that is done then everything else can be overcome. I am a supporter of the comprehensive approach. I understand the sentiment of deporting all illegals. I understand the "front of the line" argument. The thing is, 20 million illegals are too many to practically deport. The other thing is, law breakers or not, I don't blame them. I wish all Americans realized how lucky they are to be born here.

Still, it's the boarder. I supported Charles Krauthammer's plan. Build a fence. Then build another one 20 feet parallel. Have raked sand in between to detect footprints. Have the boarder patrol patrol the border. Then, and only then, grant the illegals that are here amnesty. The amnesty makes it politically viable. I like Newt's plan better.

Sarkazein said...

10. ... they should be required to go home and get the visa at home.


Heheheheh, works for me. IF we have control of the borders. Keeps us from having to go gather them all up and take them home.
HOW is that different than kicking them all out and making them come in legally?

guy faulkes said...

The only thing I disagree with is not deporting them all. They all need to be sent back to their country of origin. To not do so is to reward criminal activity at the cost of sending those that are trying to immigrate legally to the back of the line. All future paths to legal immigration should have to start in the immigrant's country of origin. There is no moral or legal reason to reward those that break the law to the detriment of those citizens OF THEIR OWN COUNTRY that try to follow it. There is no legitimate debate on this issue.

Liberal POV said...

Guy

What you think you know just ain't so!

Study the subject and bring back a workable solution.

Mass deportation is NOT going to happen, move on.

guy faulkes said...

We will not have to worry about deportation if we shut down the people that hire illegal aliens. This includes those that exploit them such as forcing underage girls into prostitution. No jobs equals a return to their country of origin.

Why do you want to reward those that criminally break immigration laws by allowing them to profit over those that would immigrate legally?

Honest Debate said...

I have to disagree with Guy Faulkes' proclamation: "There is no legitimate debate on this issue."

In theory, I think the "front of the line" argument is sound. I am also not one to say it's not possible to round up all 20 million and send them back. I support the Arizona bill but look at the outrage over showing ID. The effort to round up all illegals would require checking everyone in the country. Wouldn't it? As hard as the logistics are the politics are worse. I come back to the National ID card. I'm on the fence (no pun) on that one but it would make is far easier to deport all illegals.

Then there is the human cost. I could make the same argument on welfare. I believe that there should be none. Clinton booted millions off of welfare and that was good. "There is no moral or legal reason" to forcibly take earned money from one person and give it to someone else. None. Despite that I would not support ending it all tomorrow. The human cost would be too high. The main reason is that it is now generational. We (government) created the dependency class just as we created the immigration problem by not securing our boarders.

I don't know the answers to these questions, maybe someone can clear it up for me. Suppose a man and wife with a newborn girl get in the country illegally. The child was born in Mexico. Clearly the parents broke the law. Did the child break any laws? 18 years later if the now adult is still here is she breaking the law? Say she has a child of her own (born in America), should that child be sent back to Mexico with the illegal parent?

I just don't think it is politically viable to find a solution as long as such hard lines are drawn, that's why I like Newt's plan. I do think it is politically viable to shut down the boarder.

Liberal POV said...

HD

" I do think it is politically viable to shut down the boarder."

Lot of border there. I'm not sure you can do that.

I think the ID for banking, driver's license, Utilities, working, taxes vehicle ownership, Tags will need to become the border fence.

None of that can happen until we resolve the status of the 12-20 million here. There needs to be an easier legal but controlled entry of additional new immigrants each year.

No second class status or temporary groups like for tree harvest or to work on local resorts to drive down wages.

Honest Debate said...

Lib,

The wall can be built, there is no doubt. It would even create jobs. Maybe we could get illegals to build it. That would be rich.

There can be no resolution to the 12-20 million here until the boarder is secure.

Wolf's Head said...

LPOV, I agree with Guy. Deport ANY illegal found. They are criminals, and they should be banned from becoming US citizens.

Once this ban is put in place the illegals will RUN back home to keep from being identified and banned from becoming US citizens.

The border must be secured, and the US military should be deployed there along with the National Guard and the Reserves. The Border Patrol should be used to patrol the interior of the US for any who slip thru.

Guarding the border of a country is the traditional role of a military, and we have been too complacent and politically corrct to do what is necessary.

Don't bother responding LPOV, I really don't care for your opinion.

guy faulkes said...

I beleive a stick is the same lenght no matter which end it is from which you start the measurement. We have the legal concept of ex post facto. (sp) This means you cannot be charged with a crime if a law is passed that makes something you did that was legal at the time illegal. Therefore it is only logical that if you did something illegal at a point in time, you are still guilty of this crime if it is later legalized. You are free to commit the act after the legalization, but you still broke the law at the time the act was committed if you did so before the change. The fact it now legal might be a mitigating circumstance that could be used in determining the punishment, but you are still a criminal.

In this instance, we are spitting in the face of all those that attempted or are attempting to immigrate legally if we give those that did not amnesty. In fact, we are encouraging the law to be broken. The majority of the citizens of the United States do not agree with this.

"I don't know the answers to these questions, maybe someone can clear it up for me. Suppose a man and wife with a newborn girl get in the country illegally. The child was born in Mexico. Clearly the parents broke the law. Did the child break any laws?" No she was a infant minor that had no say in the action. She is a victim.

"18 years later if the now adult is still here is she breaking the law?" Yes. She is now an adult that is in this country illegaly. Again, she is a victim of the illegal acts of her parents, but she is still here illegally. She could have started legal immigration proceedings.

"Say she has a child of her own (born in America), should that child be sent back to Mexico with the illegal parent?" This is up to the parent. She can take the child with her, put it up for adoption, or immigrate legally and bring it back with her. The choice is hers.

Granted this is a bad situation that is not her fault, but neither is it ours other than we kept electing leftist politicians that do not follow the will of the people. The fault is with her parents and these politicians that enabled them to so easily flaunt the immigration laws. Immigration laws should be changed to more easily help a victim such as in this example legally immigrate, but not to give them amnesty. To do so encourages violations to the rule of law.

Honest Debate said...

Guy,

Thanks for answering my questions, it makes sense.

"Granted this is a bad situation that is not her fault"

That's what I mean by the "human cost".

"but neither is it ours other than we kept electing leftist politicians that do not follow the will of the people."

I put more stock in our (not you or me) culpability for electing the leftist politicians. It's a big deal. We did it and should share the blame. If the people keep electing them then they must be following the will of some people. They aren't following the law, however.

"The fault is with her parents and these politicians that enabled them to so easily flaunt the immigration laws."

Yes the parents broke the law. I honestly can't say I blame them. There is no telling what I may do (including murder) to protect my family. Many illegals do not fall into this category, maybe even most. I'm sure a lot are criminals with dastardly intent. That's why I like Newt's prioritization concept.

Overall I agree with you but I don't think it will ever happen. I'd like to see a solution. In another 10 years we'll be talking about the 30 million illegals... then 40 then 50.

guy faulkes said...

On reflection, I made some assumptions as to the conditions in HD's hypothetical situation. I am sure I conformed to his intent, but there are other possibilities.

I believe that HD meant to indicate that the girl he speaks of would be a law abiding individual. My response also assumed this. It is possible that she is helping her parents deal drugs, run a kidnapping ring, etc. If this is the case there should be no chance she or her parents could ever get to be citizens of this country.

Another thought occurred to me. In this scenario, the young lady is a mother at 18. One can only hope that this was not because she had been forced into underage prostitution. As horrifying as it is, this scenario is not beyond possibility. Due to the lax enforcement of our immigration laws, it is not even beyond probability that it could happen.

Lax enforcement of immigration laws are as detrimental to the illegal alien that is trying only to better his life as they are to the country. They encourage the illegal aliens to be exploited by those that hire them (or force them into acts against their will). If the borders were closed and these people were legal immigrants the problem of exploitation would be very nearly eliminated. However, legal immigration MUST be originated in the country of origin, not by amnesty. There has to be no reward for violating the rule of law if we are to be a nation of laws.

Sarkazein said...

H.D you wrote- "The effort to round up all illegals would require checking everyone in the country. Wouldn't it?"


About 6 blocks from my estate (for POV) is Long Point Rd. Give me a Greyhound bus and 30 minutes, and load everyone I point to into the bus. I guarantee there won't be one citizen seated besides me. They can ALL be deported... starting on Long Point would be a good starting point. After the first million or two, the others would start getting the idea and head back on their own. Once they all got back there they could start saving their own country and even pass a law saying "POST NO U.S. FLAGS"

guy faulkes said...

I just saw on the news where Lawrence Taylor has been charged with raping a 16 year old Hispanic girl who was forced by another man to have sex with Taylor. Those that support the sexual exploitation of underage illegal alien girls are DESPICABLE!

Liberal POV said...

Guy

" Those that support the sexual exploitation of underage illegal alien girls are DESPICABLE!"

You and the Good Christians that want to lable all of the hard working new immagrants as criminals making them mistrust law enforcement or afraid to report crimes. This young teenager and her family may have become the victims of your rigid stand on calling all criminals. This young teenage felt she had no protection by American laws or law enforcement as she and her parents could be deported if she were to go to them for help.

You can't see you're a large part of the problem.

Honest Debate said...

Interesting comments Guy. The possibilities are endless especially if we add another generation or two to our hypothetical scenario. It's a mess.

Your last paragraph sums it up nicely. Especially the first half. For the ones here there are many steps between amnesty and deportation but the boarders MUST be closed. That's where I'd put the "MUST". If I were the deal maker in charge of the political machinery that has to sign off on whatever happens and could get the borders irrefutably closed first...before anything else happens, then I'd give a little on your "MUST" to make it happen. I guess that's where we differ.

Honest Debate said...

Sark,

I'm taking it literally when I hear deport all illegals. I still contend: "The effort to round up all illegals would require checking everyone in the country. Wouldn't it?"

I don't have a problem giving you a bus but you'd have a more difficult time at my "estate", actually I prefer "ponderosa". They can all be deported logistically, I agree but not politically.

Honest Debate said...

Did you guys see Jan Brewers ad? Brutal.

Sarkazein said...

re: Brutal- That guy has never been funny. He tries to crack wise a lot, but he just has ZERO comedic personality.

guy faulkes said...

Liberalproverbs18:2, you are the problem when you support organizations that would help people set up these underage prostitution rings.

Any criminal avoids law enforcement. That is part of the price that you pay by being a criminal. The debate is not that all immigrants should be legal. It is that you want to ignore the rule of law and give them amnesty. This is not fair to the people that want to immigrate legally. You want to reward criminal behavior (as with your pedophile prostitution rings). The only way to handle this is to secure the border, deport the illegal aliens, and if they have not committed violent crimes in this country allow them to go to the back of the line with legal immigration proceeding.

What is Brutal is that it took a state becoming so fed up that it told the federal government that "if you will not get off your fat butt and enforce the law, we will" to get any action from the feds. As more states follow the lead f Arizona, the feds will eventually start to enforce immigration laws.

Sarkazein said...

POV wrote- "This young teenage felt she had no protection by American laws or law enforcement as she and her parents could be deported if she were to go to them for help."


1.) That's a lie. Illegal aliens report crimes and don't get deported... ALL THE TIME. They should be deported but they are not. So many do become victims of other illegals, its true. BUT, they don't get deported for reporting a crime.

2.) Where do I find the interview with her or the link where you got your info specifically about this girl and her mind-set. OR are you just making it up?

3.)"Illegal on illegal" crime is the highest. These are the lovely people you write about.

Honest Debate said...

Guy,

The more I think about Arizona the more I realize how what they're doing is minuscule. It's nothing. The ad puts it in the proper context.

Obama looks arrogant as hell as usual.

Liberal POV said...

HD

"They should be deported but they are not. So many do become victims of other illegals, its true. BUT, they don't get deported for reporting a crime."

These mostly very good people never know when the police officer will be some Good Christian like Guy who thinks their lives should be made as miserible as possible.

Most encounterd Guy's kind on a weekly basis.

Liberal POV said...

Sark and HD

My last post should have been to Sark not HD.

guy fauleks said...

Most encounterd Guy's kind on a weekly basis.

I certainly hope so. It would be better if it were on a hourly basis.

Blogger said...

Someone named Byron York put this comment on a blog:

"No, we are not confronted by actors with heavy German accents demanding our papers. We are instead confronted routinely by people of all stripes asking to see our driver's license. When we board an airplane, we are asked to produce a government-issued photo ID, usually a driver's license. When we make some credit- or debit-card purchases in department stores, we are asked to produce a driver's license. When we enter many office buildings, both private and government, security guards often ask us to produce a driver's license. When we go to doctors' offices and hospitals, we are asked to produce a driver's license. When we check into hotels, we are asked to produce a driver's license. When we purchase some over-the-counter drugs, we are asked to produce a driver's license. If we go to a bar or nightclub, anyone who looks at all young is asked to produce a driver's license. And needless to say, if we have any encounter with police or other authorities, we are asked to produce a driver's license.

Sarkazein said...

Blogger- Half those places ask for the SS number also. I don't give it to them, but they ask.

Blogger said...

It's already federal law that all legal immigrants must carry papers and produce them upon demand. You may have a problem with the new law in Arizona, but if this is the provision that makes you think Arizona has become a police state, then the entire nation has been a federal police state since at least June 27, 1952, when the federal law was passed.
8 USC Section 1304
Every alien in the United States who has been registered and fingerprinted under the provisions of the Alien Registration Act,1940, or under the provisions of this chapter shall be issued a
certificate of alien registration or an alien registration receipt card in such form and manner and at such time as shall be prescribed under regulations issued by the Attorney General.
(e) Personal possession of registration or receipt card; penalties
Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall at all times carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate of alien registration or alien registration receipt card issued tohim pursuant to subsection (d) of this section.

Sarkazein said...

On FOX Business this morning, the two liberals said that if we make all the illegals legal, it would help the deficit as they would have to start paying sales tax, and paying taxes on liquor and cigarettes. Somehow, retail clerks have not been making illegals, only, pay sales tax I guess. Liberals just don't make any sense.

Wolf's Head said...

Here's a nice video explaining the left's view on immigration.

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGqPo5ofk0s